Squad Hoppin' and General "teamworking" issues.

[HowieMandel]

Lately the big subject is teamoworking, or the lack of it, and squad hoppin. Alot of folks feel that general gameplay has faded from super fun, and tactical to...................... whatever.
I would like to say that I firmly believe the reasoning, or rather the core reason for this is:

Too many Flags. There is simply way too much ground, and way too many flags to effectively cover. I saw the maps on TOTALBF2.COM before the demo came out.....and instantly said.....ahhhh maps have way too many flags in them.
In 1942/DesertCombat, The biggest of the biggest maps, had 5 flags. This was a big map, and even 5 flags at times, got kinda hard. With BF2, there are upwards of 12 capture points, on a map. This is simply too many.

Any thoughts? Again, I just think that the core, or root problem to alot of peoples woes' is the fact is, there are too many capture points. (flags)

[=IMO=THJones]

Re: Squad Hoppin' and General "teamworking" issues.

while a valid point you made I believe more to the point the cause of lack of teamwork is people who play for stats and rank and the team be damned.

I am all for a ranking system but it should have been more teamwork oriented to where you get more points for teamwork behavior.

[Gav]

Re: Squad Hoppin' and General "teamworking" issues.

I'll have to respectfully disagree... I think the rewards for teamplay are there - for example, purely from a stats point of view, a revive is worth two points, which is the same as a kill. Plus, combat points are kills only - there are many (many) ways to earn teamwork points. I personally have almost as many team points as combat (and at one stage, I used to have more).

I think the problem is that everyone is obsessed with their kills, and neglects to make much effort for team points. Medics, for example, get a bad name for attempting to provide their unique assistance - ie heals and revives. How many people have moaned about "medic point whores"...?

Most people seem to play basically for their frags, not for their team points. I won't name any names, but a casual glance at most of the stats sigs on the forum show that the majority (the vast majority in most cases) of a player's global score is his combat score. It doesn't have to be that way. The rewards are there for teamwork - but it means you might have to sacrifice your K/D ratio a little as you shift your focus from killing to teamworking.

I have no problem with the number of flags on the map - if anything, it makes it easier, because with that many around it should be easier to find one undefended for a nice quick flag capture.

The big problem as I see it is that people rarely play to win the round. They play for kills, and some play for teamwork points, but not many try to actually win the round. I saw someone suggest somewhere on this forum (in another thread) that everyone on the winning team gets a x2 bonus, or that you don't score at all if you're on the losing team. Whilst that may seem at first to be a little skewed and perhaps an over-reaction, you can be sure that if either of those suggestions were implemented, players would work damn hard to win the round (which would necessitate some teamplay)...

The only award which looks at you win/loss ratio is the War College Ribbon, and I think most people accept they're never going to get it. Which means that there's no reason for them to try to win - so they just play for themselves, for their own stats. Which are the same regardless of whether they won or not. Change that, make it so that a round win actually means something, and players will work together more.

But of course, it won't happen.

[[2bit]Modmaven]

Re: Squad Hoppin' and General "teamworking" issues.

The problem is if the maps stayed the same size, it would take EVEN LONGER to get to a flag, if you are forced to hoof it. This would neccesitate some additional vehicles to balance.

My squad has turned a map around many times by capping all the "neglected" flags, while everyone else fights over one or two.....(cough HOTEL cough). Especially since they are nerfing squaopping (squad hopping) those flags need to stay close together.

Oh yeah, and the idea to double the points of the winners has been discussed and general consensus is that it would create way too much team switching at the end of the round, and make the commander bonus null...

[Gav]

Re: Squad Hoppin' and General "teamworking" issues.

I never really understood this teamswitching thing... For all the talk I've seen of people swapping teams at the end of the round to get a win instead of a loss, how can they do it? If the teams are even (in terms of number of players on each side) you can't swap, right? At least, I never can when I try to switch to be on the same team as my mates so we can play in a squad together...

[=IMO=THJones]

Re: Squad Hoppin' and General "teamworking" issues.

I'll have to respectfully disagree... I think the rewards for teamplay are there - for example, purely from a stats point of view, a revive is worth two points, which is the same as a kill. Plus, combat points are kills only - there are many (many) ways to earn teamwork points. I personally have almost as many team points as combat (and at one stage, I used to have more).

I think the problem is that everyone is obsessed with their kills, and neglects to make much effort for team points. Medics, for example, get a bad name for attempting to provide their unique assistance - ie heals and revives. How many people have moaned about "medic point whores"...?

Most people seem to play basically for their frags, not for their team points. I won't name any names, but a casual glance at most of the stats sigs on the forum show that the majority (the vast majority in most cases) of a player's global score is his combat score. It doesn't have to be that way. The rewards are there for teamwork - but it means you might have to sacrifice your K/D ratio a little as you shift your focus from killing to teamworking.

I have no problem with the number of flags on the map - if anything, it makes it easier, because with that many around it should be easier to find one undefended for a nice quick flag capture.

The big problem as I see it is that people rarely play to win the round. They play for kills, and some play for teamwork points, but not many try to actually win the round. I saw someone suggest somewhere on this forum (in another thread) that everyone on the winning team gets a x2 bonus, or that you don't score at all if you're on the losing team. Whilst that may seem at first to be a little skewed and perhaps an over-reaction, you can be sure that if either of those suggestions were implemented, players would work damn hard to win the round (which would necessitate some teamplay)...

The only award which looks at you win/loss ratio is the War College Ribbon, and I think most people accept they're never going to get it. Which means that there's no reason for them to try to win - so they just play for themselves, for their own stats. Which are the same regardless of whether they won or not. Change that, make it so that a round win actually means something, and players will work together more.

But of course, it won't happen.

i agree with some of what you said but when you think about the fact the engy's get so little points for repairing items as important as a UAV or arty or scanner or even a tank and gets no points for picking up enemy mines or clays ( now thats teamwork risking ur like out in the open with just a wrench out), or the fact there is no differnce in flag defence points for example on karkand from the gate house which has the commanders resources 2 vodniks and a tank and the market which has only a vodnik is ludicris...or that fact staying in a sqaud for a long period of time is not rewarded but hoping from squad to squad to get quick kills is...i feel they missed the mark on teamwork rewards...

[markan dorka]

Re: Squad Hoppin' and General "teamworking" issues.

I kinda see what makes you think of this - with less flags, people aren't so spread out, and working closely with each other, making teamplay happen

But it just doesn't. In my experience, teamplay only "happens" when you bump into somebody who thinks alike, and plays like you. Only then you can count on him doing something, know where he's headed and can react accordingly. THEN you can get some awesome tag-team thing going on, killing people left and right, covering each other etc. You just can't walk up to some random joe schmoe and say "hey, let's teamplay".

Other alternative is to play a LOT with same people, so you learn how they think and play. That usually means playing with your mates. You can impose hundred rules on people, force them to be within 5 feet of each other and do "teamplay" stuff, but it doesn't make them play as a team. All it does is **** them off for restricting their way of playing.

It's nice to find a blame in some score system or etc. but people play games for fun, and for majority, outsmarting, outreacting and outlasting their virtual opponent is fun. That is, they play first person shooters to shoot people. Sure they do care about their score or stats, but take all that away, and they still log into play primarily to kill.

I know I do. I play for big explosions, firing full clip with AK and seeing few guys go down, adrenaline rush, going against 6 guys alone and that awesome feeling of pulling it off occasionally. It's often funny when 12 people on both sides are doing the same at same point, there could be some resemblance of teamplay going on, but for everybody, it's still basically "my enjoyment first", whether that enjoyment comes from killing or doing some "teamplay" actions like healing or reviving, even though they are just playing "heal and revive"-game for their own enjoyment.

.. Unless they're playing with their friends, or people who think and play alike them. And this isn't going to change, it has been like this from Quake and will be like this as long as we are playing from leisure of our living rooms to kill some time and have some fun.

If you want teamplay, get some friends to play with you or join a clan. Don't try to force other people who don't want to socialize with you or play alike you to teamplay, because it just isn't going to happen.

Points and all that jazz is just icing.