Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

[Tenshi]

Where does everyone stand?

Ive spent a while looking into this...

I think nVidia are scrambling to find a use for those extra cards people are buying to justify buying two of them.

Theyre also cashing in on the "buzzword" phenomenon whereby noone really understands what physics is and what it will be, and the strange idea that physics is simple...yet it would seem that there idea of physics is actually "physics for graphics" and thats about it. No player interaction.

Something many people dont realise is that a huge amount of the cpu is taken by physics right now...and im not talking ragdolls and fluids...im talking collision detection, motion logic, bullet trajectories, damage calculations. These things involve the player and as such dont seem to be present in the GPU solution.

The dedicated GPU does all this and alot more...and it does it many times faster.

So this whole SLI physics thing is, IMHO going to slow down the inevitable arrival of the dedicated PPU. nVidia are just exploiting the vagueness of the market to implant the idea that they can do something they cant and hopeing noone will realise that...because why buy a ppu when you can use a gpu?

I think physics in games deserves a dedicated card so that it can begin to evolve as a standalone entity in the same way gpus have. The idea tha a gpu can deliver the same is absurd.

Opinions?

[AFEDslayer]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

My opinion is somewhat the same. I think that having dedicated PPU cards would realy be a big step in pc gaming. This way the gpu can focus on graphical items, and the ppu can work on the physics.

[sackynut]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

remember, sli physics is only for SLi. imo opinion SLi physics is sorta better. Because you not only get two cards and much better performance but you get a PPU. But, the Physx is also a great idea and it all really depends on how each is going to be implemented. I think if they soon made the Physx for Pci-express x1 it would take off. like I said it all depends on price, and how its all implemented. I guess well see.
I mean, it depends on what games support it, how much performance increase/decrease you see in certain things and all of that.

[Sir. MatDef]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

remember, sli physics is only for SLi. imo opinion SLi physics is sorta better. Because you not only get two cards and much better performance but you get a PPU. But, the Physx is also a great idea and it all really depends on how each is going to be implemented. I think if they soon made the Physx for Pci-express x1 it would take off. like I said it all depends on price, and how its all implemented. I guess well see.
I mean, it depends on what games support it, how much performance increase/decrease you see in certain things and all of that.

1. Sli physics is going to be completely worthless. It's half-assed at best, and robs you of performance at worst. Right now the ageia ppu is going to cost between 250 and 300 bucks. If you buy two fairly high end cards, you will be paying a minimun of 600. With that 600 you get crappy semi physics, with only one card actually doing graphics work. If you buy a ppu, you will the same level of graphics with a massive boost to the ingame physics, such as seen here:

http://www.ageia.com/physxinaction/demos.html

Frankly, I'd rather just go and get the ppu, but thats me.

2. There will be a pcie version coming out, people will just have to wait a little while longer (besides, it's not like any game actually supports it yet).

I agree with everything else.

[WhardieJones]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

I see that some have already taken fallacious reasoning and ran with it. I'm not expecting to change anyone's opinion so I won't bother going into the details. My advice is that before you start making statements that don't make any sense, try reading on what a graphics card can do. Playing a game doesn't make you an expert the technology behind it.

[i made you]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

1. Sli physics is going to be completely worthless. It's half-assed at best, and robs you of performance at worst. Right now the ageia ppu is going to cost between 250 and 300 bucks. If you buy two fairly high end cards, you will be paying a minimun of 600. With that 600 you get crappy semi physics, with only one card actually doing graphics work. If you buy a ppu, you will the same level of graphics with a massive boost to the ingame physics, such as seen here:

http://www.ageia.com/physxinaction/demos.html

Frankly, I'd rather just go and get the ppu, but thats me.

2. There will be a pcie version coming out, people will just have to wait a little while longer (besides, it's not like any game actually supports it yet).

I agree with everything else.

I'd rather buy one gpu and one ppu as well. SLI/dual cards is meant for future graphics upgrades, not physics.

[sackynut]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

okay well thanks, I didnt know how much Sli physics would work etc, i just read an article on it. But, I think Im going to wait for the Physx to come out for a PCIe x1 slot, because I only have one more PCI slot, and it is right under my second GPU, and its very close and probably wont fit -_-.

[Death Merchant]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

these cards might be to stay and in 10-15 we might see pyshics cards as highly intergrated into pcs as a graphics card

im sure this happened when manufacturers created the gpu now most pcs have a seperate graphics chip

[Tenshi]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

I see that some have already taken fallacious reasoning and ran with it. I'm not expecting to change anyone's opinion so I won't bother going into the details. My advice is that before you start making statements that don't make any sense, try reading on what a graphics card can do. Playing a game doesn't make you an expert the technology behind it.

k

A gpu is capable of floating point calculations so it is capable of physics. The important word being capable. A gpu isnt just a floating-point chip, some cache and a bus...its alot more than that.

Its architecture is designed and optimised for the sort of processes involved in graphics bases on teh principals of graphics. These optimisations dont apply to physics.

1: GPUs dont have the memory bandwidth needed as they arent designed to make a high texture access to calculation ratio.

2: GPUs arent designed for read-calculate-write which is essential for physics

3: GPUs are designed to perform small operation (pixel and vertext kernels) on many values at once because in graphics rendering the sort of calculations you do are usually all the same...this doesnt work in physics.

4: Physics is based on the concept of state where the entire worl is in a state and parts of it are updated in very different ways constantly...(see 2)

5: Things like antialiasing acceleration, shadow optimisation, mipmap acceleration, anisotropic filtering etc etc (the things that make gpus fast) arent applicable to physics

6: There ARE a bunch of optimisations that do apply to physics that are only feasable on a stand alone card.

7: The information from nvidia about the architecture of the sli solution implies that the physics data never leaves the gpu (a BIG nono), which means no player interaction with the physics: which is a bad thing

8: Number 7 implies that the sli solution cant do collision detection, which is something that takes up loads of cpu runtime in current games and isnt very accurate. The PPU can do proper per-visible-poly collision detection i a fully dynamic environment...there taking a huge load off the cpu.

9: Physics is as important as graphics therefore requires a stand alone card so that the concept can evolve.

10: Improving graphics has been shown (in research) to make games less believable, one reason is that the behaviour of the world doesnt match the visiual realism.

11: nVidia know 10 and are scrambling to justify buying two huge gpus

urm...cant think of anymore for now

[Tenshi]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

thought of another BIG reason


12: The development software for the agiea card is FREE.

[sackynut]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

I think what would be best is this:
Make is form factor. What I mean is, every single game out that currently that uses any calculations uses the CPU for them. Automatically the CPU calculates what it needs to for the game.
The way the PhysX will work is, the game has to be sepcifically designed to use it, and the drivers need to know that. What would be great is if, they made it so that it could do calculations for ANY game that needed it. Even BF2, just by the drivers. so developers didnt NEED to add extra stuff into their games for it. But then again, its mainly the newer games that need the PPU...

[Tenshi]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

No games will need the ppu because the API used for it can also run in software mode (this already exists and has been used in games already which is why some games already support the PPU).

Games use GPUs but that doesnt mean that a GPU can just generically accelerate any game...the game has to use DirectX or OpenGL.

The CPU has to be told to use the PPU or GPU and the game has to have the commands to tell the PPU or GPU what to do. I mean, you cant just stick in a GPU and expect it to accelerate games written before the GPU was invented.

[SciFiMan]

Re: Ageia Asus PPU/SLI Physics

Just in from the news desk..... Good news on the initial developer support. But since big budget games are several years in the making, we'll see what games show up for the Asus and BFG cards this year.
---
"Out in May and ready to fly

By INQUIRER staff: Wednesday 29 March 2006, 14:45

TAIWANESE GIANT Asustek said it will be the only company to manufacture and sell the 256MB Ageia PhysX card - the high end model.

The firm described the physics accelerator card as a "totally new category" in PC hardware. Sixty developers are working on over 100 games that will use it, said Asus.

The cards will be available in May, and Asus didn't say how much it was going to cost. But you can probably count on the words "totally new category" as meaning you will have to totally dig into your wallets, and disperse those moths that have been nesting in there."