Video Card Talk

[Hound_Dawg]

Hey Wanna talk about video cards? Want to post/view new driver updates, screenshots, or media? How bout debate the nVidia fanboys, or the jealous Ati owners? Want to flame me for saying that? Or debate between Sli and Crossfire and see updates concerning each? How about debate about prices? Or just help fellow gamers out and post about stores with good prices? Want to post sneak peeks at video cards? Or just want to rant about how much you love your rig? Post it all in here! This space belongs to the cards.

[AquilaPhasmas]

Re: Video Card Talk

Yes, thats a genious idea, merge all the 12-50 page idiot flame wars into one, space robbing post...dude there are sperate posts and even forums for each and every one of those things you just mentioned. Please close/edit/lock whatever.

[kfj]

Re: Video Card Talk

or post it in the right section of the forum

[Hound_Dawg]

Re: Video Card Talk

ok first, making it all in one thread is much more convenient more people, and in response to the second if this thread gets filled with screenshots and videos it would be in the media section.

[beastoftheeast]

Re: Video Card Talk

my 6600gt owns a 7800gtx. hands down. ownage

[Hound_Dawg]

Re: Video Card Talk

Haha got any specs to prove that? I got my 256 MB 6800 which operates around 90-100 fps and with 43 bots it has never crashed and still maintains 60 fps. Heres a picture of my awesome graphics. and if your picture is a jpeg dont bother. post the .png file that comes in the "screenshots folder" although not considered an image by some programs it accuratly displays what "you're seeing." JPEG especially loses quality when you resize it unlike .png which loses minimal quality.


*also does anybody know where the post is with every single driver for semi-recent cards? Also does anyone know where the comparison fps charts are witht he recent video cards? they were all in a post, i attempted to search but came up fruitless.

Files compliments of http://www.putfile.com

[lil_jimmy_norton]

Re: Video Card Talk

Haha got any specs to prove that? I got my 256 MB 6800 which operates around 90-100 fps and with 43 bots it has never crashed and still maintains 60 fps. Heres a picture of my awesome graphics. and if your picture is a jpeg dont bother. post the .png file that comes in the "screenshots folder" although not considered an image by some programs it accuratly displays what "you're seeing." JPEG especially loses quality when you resize it unlike .png which loses minimal quality.


*also does anybody know where the post is with every single driver for semi-recent cards? Also does anyone know where the comparison fps charts are witht he recent video cards? they were all in a post, i attempted to search but came up fruitless.

http://www.putfile.com

http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2466&p=1

[Hound_Dawg]

Re: Video Card Talk

wow nice find Jimmy, thats got a lot of info.

[Hound_Dawg]

Re: Video Card Talk

NVIDIA SLI Antialiasing

Video | Posted by Brandon Hill on Jul 21st, 2005 from Email
Both HardOCP and The Tech Report have posted articles in relation to SLI Anti-liasing that has been enabled in the new ForceWare 77.66 drivers. Here's a blurb from HardOCP's article:

By evaluating our in-game screenshots and formulating an opinion based on real-world 3D gameplay while using NVIDIA's SLI 8X and SLI 16X AA modes, we can finally say, "NVIDIA has the upper hand in Antialiasing quality." It has been quite a while since we could honestly make that kind of statement. NVIDIA also currently gives gamers more Antialiasing options than the competition. With a single GeForce 6 or 7 series video card, you have 2X, 4X, and 8xS AA modes available to you. With SLI, you have 2X, 4X, 8xS, SLI 8X, and SLI 16X AA modes. With the GeForce 7 series, you also have Transparency Multisampling and Transparency Supersampling features available. It used to be that ATI owned image quality and performance and now the tables have been turned.

Thats interesting, finally the "fanboys have support.

[PurpleBarney]

Re: Video Card Talk

I have a 7800gtx. need another gig ram tho lol

[Hound_Dawg]

Re: Video Card Talk

Really? I have a "vanilla" 6800 with everything on high with lighting on medium and antialiasing on 8xs and with 43 bots and i still get 60-70 fps. You know it could be your Front sidfe bus with your processor, because i know a friend who has a 2.0 ghz laptop that is equivalent to a 3.0 GHz desktop processor becuse his FSB is so fast.The FSB is the speed at which your processor "sends stuff" to your mobo. So basically if you're going to buy a good processor make sure the fsb is good otherwise it aint worth it, and i know you were talking bout RAM not processor's

[Hound_Dawg]

Re: Video Card Talk

Hey here's an unbiased view of the current crossfire condition as of Sept. 16th 2005 found off a link from http://anandtech.com/news/shownews.aspx?i=24909
decide for yourself

September 16, 2005

ATI's Crossfire Limitation- Mountains Out of Molehills - Josh

Rage3D really broke the news on the possible limitations of the Silicon Image Sil 1161 receiver that ATI's CrossFire utilized. The receiver can handle a max of 1600x1200 at 60 Hz (or essentially receive 60 1600x1200 frames per second), and runs at a maximum of 165 MHz. At first this limitation looks like a huge disaster waiting to happen to ATI with the release of CrossFire, and many are screaming that the engineers fell down on the job and should all be sacked. When I was first given this information, I originally thought that ATI had made a big blunder... but upon further investigation I believe that it really isn't that big of a limitation at all.

The DVI spec is actually pretty flexible, and by doing tricks such as blanking, higher resolutions can be achieved that should be normally out of the range of the chips involved. Since Silicon Image actually developed the spec, they definitely know it inside and out. The first thing we need to do is separate the fact from fiction, and really show what is going on as well as the limitations that really are there. What we should remember, first and foremost, is that we don't know the exact engineering processes and tricks that ATI is using for their CrossFire implementation. ATI has some pretty clever engineers, and I don't think that something this obvious got past them.

First off the Sil 1161 receiver simply receives the pixel data from the slave board. That data is sent to the compositing engine, which then takes the final frame/s and sends it to either its built in TMDS transmitter or the RAMDAC, both of which can handle 2048x1536 @ 85 Hz. The Sil 1161 has NOTHING to do with the refresh rate of the screen that is connected to the master card. So, at the very least, CrossFire users can enjoy refresh rates on CRT monitors greater than 60 Hz at resolutions above 1600x1200 because that is based on the transmitters on the master card, which are essentially identical to every other standalone, high-end ATI card. You can find the refresh/pixel specs here.

What we are basically talking about here is bandwidth between the slave card and the master card. Something else to take into account is that the DVI standard assumes that the cable will be at least a meter long between the transmitter and the receiver. In CrossFire the cable between the slave and master cards will most likely be around 10 cm long at most. ATI could very well have tweaked the 1161 to increase its bandwidth. But even if the chip itself is stock, we are still only dealing with this problem as bandwidth.

The receiver can handle 1600x1200 @ 60 Hz, which means that it can receive 60 frames of 1600x1200 pixel content per second. When used with the output of the master card, this can give a theoretical maximum of 120 fps at 1600x1200 resolution when using alternating frames. Most high quality 21" CRTs can usually handle a maximum of 100 Hz at 1600x1200, so using AFR with v-sync enabled, 100 fps is theoretically achievable (depending on the application of course). Let's look at other situations.

The maximum bandwidth at 1600x1200 @ 60 Hz is around 115 million pixels per second (Mpps). ATI is using three different methods for rendering with two cards. The first is alternate frame rendering, which in most cases is the best scenario due to geometry scaling. The second is SuperTiling, which splits the scene into even and odd "supertiles" (though there is information pointing to SuperTiling not working with 12 pipeline cards- apparently SuperTiling requires even numbers of quads to work correctly). The last is Scissor mode, which splits the screen in half. Again, we are essentially dealing with bandwidth here. The DVI spec is fairly flexible with how it is implemented, and in SuperTiling and Scissor modes, the entire frame doesn't have to be transmitted (which is essentially done pixel by pixel anyway). So, in either of these modes, 1/2 of the total frame needs to be transmitted. Let's stick with Scissor mode so it will be easy to understand.

One of the biggest complaints raised by people around the net is that they won't be able to use their 23" and 24" widescreen LCD's at 1920x1200. Let us assume we are using one of these LCD's at that resolution. The Sil 1161 can handle a maximum of 115 Mpps theoretically. Using Scissor mode, the slave card has to render a 1920x600 area, if it is doing so at 60 fps, it is taking up a maximum bandwidth of 69 Mpps, which is far below the theoretical 115 Mpps maximum. Using tricky algebra, we can see that using a 1920x600 "frame" a maximum frame rate of 99.9 fps can be achieved and still reach the theoretical bandwidth limit. Due to the way Scissor scales, the entire composited scene will have a maximum framerate of 99.9 fps. Considering most of the widescreen LCD's can usually handle only 60 Hz (or 60 fps with v-synch enabled) at the higher resolutions, it is not all that big of a deal.

Let's move on to a higher end CRT or LCD that can display 2048x1536. In Scissor mode each card has to render 2048x768 pixels, and at 60 Hz that comes out to be 94 Mpps. Again, this is well below the maximum 115 Mpps that the receiver can handle. The maximum fps that the receiver can handle in this mode is 73 fps. While this is short of the 75 fps that is needed to run with v-sync enabled at 75 Hz, it isn't terribly far off either! Most users will not notice much of a difference (this is again assuming the cards can run the application at that speed).

Now, things do change around a bit when using alternating frames. At 1920x1200 the receiver can handle a maximum of 50 fps (1920x1200 at 50 Hz, assuming the Sil chip can be programmed as such). At 2048x1536 the maximum rate is 37 fps (2048x1536 at 37 Hz). In alternating frame mode the CrossFire solution will have a max FPS of 100 when used at 1920, or a max FPS of 75 when used with 2048. We are essentially just dealing with bandwidth, as the pixel information transmitted basically contains color information (RGB) and location (clock). As such, the ways with dealing with this information can be pretty flexible. This of course assumes that the Sil 1161 is running at 165 MHz all the time.

In summary, CrossFire users should not be hamstrung into using 1600x1200 @ 60 Hz with their high end monitors and LCDs. When digging deeper, we see that it is a probably a fairly flexible solution, and the Silicon Image chip being used won't be that big of a hurdle. Now, in saying that, I think that ATI should have used the Sil 1171 receiver that can handle 2048x1536 @ 60 Hz, as it would have given them a LOT more headroom and would have made this controversy a non-issue. Something to definitely consider though is that we have no idea what the R520 CrossFire cards will be using, and they could very well be designed with the 1171. This may be a bit of a stumble for ATI as they definitely are limiting their performance in these higher resolution situations with the 1161 receiver.

My overall feelings towards CrossFire remains the same though. I do feel that it is essentially a knee jerk reaction to SLI, and there are some aspects that were not well thought out or planned for. I believe that NVIDIA's SLI is more flexible, and the over the top connector allows far greater bandwidth than what CrossFire currently enables. I think what is most important though is that we have competition at the high end with scalable solutions. There will be areas where the CrossFire will shine over SLI, and vice-versa. Still, CrossFire has not been released yet, and SLI in its present state is a far cry from what it was when introduced nearly a year ago. ATI still has a big mountain to climb, especially if the leaked benchmarks for the X1800 XT are correct.

[Kraven]

Re: Video Card Talk

Nvidia for th3 w1n!

[Eliminator]

Re: Video Card Talk

cool but when will it come out? I want to check them out before i buy my new PC

[Hound_Dawg]

Re: Video Card Talk

I do not know specifically when it will come out, but i have a couple of recent drivers for nVidia here http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_do...etadriver.html