Building a new pc

[Flanker]

Re: Building a new pc

I say wait for Conroe. AMD is out of the game for a couple of years, there's no reason to build an AMD system anymore. Definately wait for Conroe (July 23rd). Its a waste of money to get a AMD system when a 2.13Ghz Conroe benches like a 2.8GHz FX-60.

[imported_Wreck]

Re: Building a new pc

I say wait for Conroe. AMD is out of the game for a couple of years, there's no reason to build an AMD system anymore. Definately wait for Conroe (July 23rd). Its a waste of money to get a AMD system when a 2.13Ghz Conroe benches like a 2.8GHz FX-60.

For a couple of years? K8L is coming around Christmas...

After quad cores are released people will start to see the limitations of Intels on motherboard memory controller and it's weak bandwidth.

Why not just say FX62 since it uses DDR2 and is already clocked at 2.8Ghz? Also benches what programs? Core 2 at 2.4Ghz is more like an AMD FX62 at 2.8GHz.

There is also alot of talk of AMD's revisoin G processors due out soon that may have something in store for Conroe. It's rumored to have an extra decoder and improved SSE handling.

Honestly I wouldn't build a new rig until Vista, DX10, Core 2, K8L, R600, and G80 are released.

[gungho]

Re: Building a new pc

I bought all my components here -
http://www.scan.co.uk/
prices were pretty good at the time.

[Sir. MatDef]

Re: Building a new pc

Honestly I wouldn't build a new rig until Vista, DX10, Core 2, K8L, R600, and G80 are released.

But that's quite a long ways away.

[Flanker]

Re: Building a new pc

I know its long, but bear with me here, I talk about everything.

K8L isn't coming out anytime near Christmas. Its slated for H1 2007, I'd give it around mid-2007. And K8L, just by being K8L, won't do anything for AMD. Yea, there are a bunch of changes coming with K8L, but there are no architectural changes that will improve the clock-efficiency. Thats what AMD needs, a new architecture. As AMD itself put it; "K8L is evolutionary, not revolutionary." Its just going to be a upgrade of K8, as the name implies. As for Quad-Cores, that'd be great for AMD -- If Intel wasn't bringing out their own Quad-Core processors about 9 months earlier than AMD. AMD's Quad Cores (Deerhound) are slated for Q4 2007, while Intel's Quad Cores (Kentsfield) are slated for Q1 2007. That can mean as late as December, and March 2007, respectively.

As for FSB, true, Intel just dumps the extra cores on the bus, and puts on a pained smile when you mention bus speed. However, the alternative is for AMD to have each die with one HT-out connected to the socket, but this again has latency problems, and potential routing issues. They both hammer memory latency, halve memory bandwidth, and generally make things slower for all cores. One would expect the one die slaved off the other to be the way AMD does things in the end.

On to the bencmarks then? The 2.4Ghz Conroe vs. 2.8Ghz FX-60 is misleading. When you see those benched, it shows the Conroe decimating the Athlon 64, not matching it. As of yet, there have been very few, if any, benchmarks showing the Conroe and Athlon 64 performing the same. All the benchmarks so far have shown the Conroe dominating. From all the benchmarks I've seen, I've made of a ratio that I think is pretty accurate. [Conroe:A64] = [1:1.33]. Doesn't seem so bad until you consider that CPUs don't run at 1.0Ghz. That puts a 2Ghz Conroe well over the FX-60, and a 2.13Ghz Conroe (since a 2.0Ghz doesn't exist) at the performance of the FX-62.

As for rev.G, it brings the things you mentioned, and also 65nm. But other than lowering prices a bit, and giving the Athlon 64s some higher clocking potential, it still won't help AMD's clock performance as it also doesn't bring any clock-efficiency changes. Its rev.G thats coming out around Christmas, not K8L. And thats hardly sometime soon. But some final food for thought - AMD has to clock a Athlon 64 at 3.5Ghz (according to the ratio) to compete with the Conroe E6700 (2.66Ghz). After that, (assuming they manage to do even that), they have to cut the price of such a high-end processor in half to compete with the $530 pricetag of the Conroe.

This next part is just personal squabbling. Core 2 comes out July 23rd, and G80 is supposed to be Q3 2006, fair enough. However, R600 doesn't come out until the end of the year. But we can still say that a FanATIc could wait that long. But...Vista and DX10 (almost the same thing) don't come out until Q1 2007. And K8L isn't coming out until mid-2007. Thats a long time to wait for someone that wants to build a PC right now, wouldn't you say. By the time K8L comes out, we'll be seeing GeForce 9 coming around, and then there's the potential for a FanATIc to wait for R700. Its a neverending cycle

Now you see why AMD is out of the game for quite a while? Intel's Quad Cores, while still maintaining their clock-efficiency dominance over AMD, and coming out 6-9 months before AMD's Quad Cores (which won't even be K8L, the K8L Quad Cores don't come until 2008) will wipe the floor with AMD's Quad Cores. And AMD has nothing up it's sleeve besides K8L, they're empty handed. As Anand put it, "When Intel first started talking about its new Core architecture, we turned to AMD for a response that it surely must have had in the works for years, but as you all know we came up empty handed."

Well...AMD IS rumoured to have ONE thing. Its supposed to be a super-clocked Athlon 64 FX processor. I'm talking 3.2Ghz speeds here, maybe 3.4Ghz. That just might be able to touch on the 2.66Ghz E6700. However, you have to consider the price of such a extreme processor, and the avaliability (good luck getting the few hundred that get made), and then compare it to the almost mainstream E6700. And ofcourse, there is the 2.93Ghz X6800 Extreme Edition Conroe.

Face it, our favorite company of 4 years has met it's match. AMD dominated the arena for 4 years, starting with the original Athlon, and kept the lead even though Intel revealed a new architecture (Netburst). Similarly, there is nothing to keep Intel from doing the same, and retain their lead while AMD bring out a new architecture (kind of, its not really all new). As sort of a final punch, Intel has new arichitectures (Nehalem - 45nm, and Gesher - 32nm) planned in 2008 and 2010, respectively.

I'm building a E6600 (2.4Ghz Core 2 Duo, 4MB L2 cache) and G80 build when Vista comes out. I intend to overclock the Conroe to close to 3Ghz, and have the time of my life for the next few years.

[lpdude]

Re: Building a new pc

any way back to the topic, any ideas and im not familur with the mombo jumbo about comps so help me out please

[Flanker]

Re: Building a new pc

Wait until July 23rd when Conroe comes out and then build a PC. $1500 is a comfortable budget, you'll get a very nice computer. But building a Athlon 64 system with Conroe just a breath away would be akin to building a Pentium 4 system with the Athlon 64 being a clear winner.

Come back in August and I'll personally design you a new computer for 800 pounds.

[LoD]

Re: Building a new pc

I would agree with Flanker's post. He has a very well thought out argument, and its the most informed post I have seen around here in a while.

That being said, I dont want to debate semantics, but we really dont know what the upgraded math logic mumbo jumbo on the K8L will do. It's possible it will close the gap somewhat even if K8L is tied to current architecture.

Same way that die shrunk, slightly tweaked northwood with double cache was a leap above the almost identicle willamette original P4. AMD has had 3 years to learn from the design.... its possible they will pull a Prescott and drive the architecture into the ground, but we just dont know yet.

[Flanker]

Re: Building a new pc

I'll admit that I don't have a crystal ball, but everything I've said is simply the culmination of facts that I've gathered from here and there. K8L could indeed surprise and take the crown from Conroe, however unlikely it seems. But I just have a hard time believing that AMD is going to stay for long, even if it comes back. This is in no way AMD's fault, its simply that Intel is pushing REALLY HARD to keep the lead. 3 architectures in a span of 6 years, and all reducing the production size -- thats incredible pressure on AMD. There is hope for AMD in that its a very smart company, and right now, it has a very good idea of what NOT to do with it's processors. And like I said, I can hardly see the future, so AMD may come back. But the chance isn't large enough to keep me from my Conroe system in 2007. I would also urge others to not put off building systems until mid-'07 in the hopes that AMD brings out something better.

[imported_Wreck]

Re: Building a new pc

Release dates are hardly set in stone, and AMD has always been quiet about releasing new technology or product lines. Anyone remember Opteron 939 processors?

By around Christmas I mean January/Q1 of 2007.

All I'm saying is AMD has something up it's sleeve and we may see it sooner than you all think.

If I upgraded to Core2 now I'd be upgrading again in another six months.

[LoD]

Re: Building a new pc

K8L will launch in 1Q07, that could mean as late as march, and thats if it isnt paper launched. While i want january, i wouldnt be surprised if we dont see mass avaliability until a year from now.

Same goes for Conroe, in launches in 2 months, but Im not sure we will see widespread availability until early 2007 or late 2006

[Flanker]

Re: Building a new pc

Release dates that specify a quarter of the year are rarely accurate, I agree. Infact, the processors usually come out later. But Intel starts shipping the Conroes on June 6th. That gives retailers more than enough time to ready the processors for sale, and Intel has a specified date - July 23rd. AM2 release date was June 6th, but they changed it to the earliest they could to keep the AM2 and Conroe release dates far apart. That said, AM2 was delievered promptly on May 23rd. And K8L Dual Cores in 2007 are fine, but Intel will have QUAD Cores in the same timeframe. AMD has a K8 Quad Core (Deerhound) at the end of 2007, and a K8L Quad Core (Greyhound) in the beginning of 2008. Needless to say, Quad Cores > Dual Cores.

As for AMD having something up it's sleeve -- we know about future processors over a year before they come out. Just look at Intel, its 2006 and we know about Gesher in 2010. We've known about Conroe and K8L both since mid-2005. I've been arguing this on another forum also; You can't just say that AMD has something up it's sleeve and have it be true. Tell me truthfully; do you have any proof of AMD having something under it's sleeve? I'm guessing no since it would be all over the web.

The only thing that AMD has up it's sleeve is the super-clocked FX processor. At the end of the AM2 review, Anand hinted at this;

AMD does have one last trick up its sleeve before the end of the year, and you will hear about it in June. It's not K8L and it's not going to affect the majority of people, but it is an interesting stop gap solution for the high end in 2006...

That fits the superclocked FX leak perfectly. Its before the end of the year, in June the leak should be officially announced, its certainly not K8L, its not going to affect the majority of people because it will likely cost $1500 (random guess) and only a few hundred will be made, and its only for the high-end because...well read the last paragraph and you'll know.

"Magic processors" don't pop up out of nowhere. If AMD had something, they would be yelling it to the world to save themselves from Conroe's onslaught. I have a lot of respect for AMD, but its not unbeatable.

When Intel first started talking about its new Core architecture, we turned to AMD for a response that it surely must have had in the works for years, but as you all know we came up empty handed.

[SFR-MAINE]

Re: Building a new pc

I know its long, but bear with me here, I talk about everything.

K8L isn't coming out anytime near Christmas. Its slated for H1 2007, I'd give it around mid-2007. And K8L, just by being K8L, won't do anything for AMD. Yea, there are a bunch of changes coming with K8L, but there are no architectural changes that will improve the clock-efficiency. Thats what AMD needs, a new architecture. As AMD itself put it; "K8L is evolutionary, not revolutionary." Its just going to be a upgrade of K8, as the name implies. As for Quad-Cores, that'd be great for AMD -- If Intel wasn't bringing out their own Quad-Core processors about 9 months earlier than AMD. AMD's Quad Cores (Deerhound) are slated for Q4 2007, while Intel's Quad Cores (Kentsfield) are slated for Q1 2007. That can mean as late as December, and March 2007, respectively.

As for FSB, true, Intel just dumps the extra cores on the bus, and puts on a pained smile when you mention bus speed. However, the alternative is for AMD to have each die with one HT-out connected to the socket, but this again has latency problems, and potential routing issues. They both hammer memory latency, halve memory bandwidth, and generally make things slower for all cores. One would expect the one die slaved off the other to be the way AMD does things in the end.

On to the bencmarks then? The 2.4Ghz Conroe vs. 2.8Ghz FX-60 is misleading. When you see those benched, it shows the Conroe decimating the Athlon 64, not matching it. As of yet, there have been very few, if any, benchmarks showing the Conroe and Athlon 64 performing the same. All the benchmarks so far have shown the Conroe dominating. From all the benchmarks I've seen, I've made of a ratio that I think is pretty accurate. [Conroe:A64] = [1:1.33]. Doesn't seem so bad until you consider that CPUs don't run at 1.0Ghz. That puts a 2Ghz Conroe well over the FX-60, and a 2.13Ghz Conroe (since a 2.0Ghz doesn't exist) at the performance of the FX-62.

As for rev.G, it brings the things you mentioned, and also 65nm. But other than lowering prices a bit, and giving the Athlon 64s some higher clocking potential, it still won't help AMD's clock performance as it also doesn't bring any clock-efficiency changes. Its rev.G thats coming out around Christmas, not K8L. And thats hardly sometime soon. But some final food for thought - AMD has to clock a Athlon 64 at 3.5Ghz (according to the ratio) to compete with the Conroe E6700 (2.66Ghz). After that, (assuming they manage to do even that), they have to cut the price of such a high-end processor in half to compete with the $530 pricetag of the Conroe.

This next part is just personal squabbling. Core 2 comes out July 23rd, and G80 is supposed to be Q3 2006, fair enough. However, R600 doesn't come out until the end of the year. But we can still say that a FanATIc could wait that long. But...Vista and DX10 (almost the same thing) don't come out until Q1 2007. And K8L isn't coming out until mid-2007. Thats a long time to wait for someone that wants to build a PC right now, wouldn't you say. By the time K8L comes out, we'll be seeing GeForce 9 coming around, and then there's the potential for a FanATIc to wait for R700. Its a neverending cycle

Now you see why AMD is out of the game for quite a while? Intel's Quad Cores, while still maintaining their clock-efficiency dominance over AMD, and coming out 6-9 months before AMD's Quad Cores (which won't even be K8L, the K8L Quad Cores don't come until 2008) will wipe the floor with AMD's Quad Cores. And AMD has nothing up it's sleeve besides K8L, they're empty handed. As Anand put it, "When Intel first started talking about its new Core architecture, we turned to AMD for a response that it surely must have had in the works for years, but as you all know we came up empty handed."

Well...AMD IS rumoured to have ONE thing. Its supposed to be a super-clocked Athlon 64 FX processor. I'm talking 3.2Ghz speeds here, maybe 3.4Ghz. That just might be able to touch on the 2.66Ghz E6700. However, you have to consider the price of such a extreme processor, and the avaliability (good luck getting the few hundred that get made), and then compare it to the almost mainstream E6700. And ofcourse, there is the 2.93Ghz X6800 Extreme Edition Conroe.

Face it, our favorite company of 4 years has met it's match. AMD dominated the arena for 4 years, starting with the original Athlon, and kept the lead even though Intel revealed a new architecture (Netburst). Similarly, there is nothing to keep Intel from doing the same, and retain their lead while AMD bring out a new architecture (kind of, its not really all new). As sort of a final punch, Intel has new arichitectures (Nehalem - 45nm, and Gesher - 32nm) planned in 2008 and 2010, respectively.

I'm building a E6600 (2.4Ghz Core 2 Duo, 4MB L2 cache) and G80 build when Vista comes out. I intend to overclock the Conroe to close to 3Ghz, and have the time of my life for the next few years.

Excellent Post dude. I myself will be building a conroe system maybe in august. E6600 with the 4mb cache is the same one I want. Do you think you could hit 3GHZ with just air cooling?

However I need to get a new motherboard since the one I have know is starting to die on me. I will get a cheap one to get me by till august and maybe a dual core pentium d. I read the prices are going to drop to under 200$ for the 900 series.

[Flanker]

Re: Building a new pc

Well I've heard speculation that Intel sent cherry-picked processors to the guys at XS to overclock, so they might be overclocking higher than the final product. Personally, I think it would be stupid of Intel to do such a thing, but thats just me. Then again, there's the thing about pre-release samples being generally worse than the final result (excluding cherry-picking) so they might indeed perform even better.

Thats just some random info though; I think that we can expect the same overclocking as the Opteron 165s/170s are doing right now. The same numbers atleast, the actual performance will ofcourse be much higher in the Core 2 Duos. But my point is that you should be able to get the 2.13Ghz Conroe to atleast 2.7Ghz on stock air cooling.

As for the motherboard, I'm not sure if you know or not (excuse me if I'm just repeating something you've heard) but only the 975X chipset Intel motherboards will work at Conroe at this point. These motherboards all cost $200+. When Conroe is released, there will be an influx of new chipsets, and thus will lead to newer (and ofcourse cheaper) motherboards. I wouldn't really recommend getting a Conroe-compatible motherboards right now unless you've got money to burn.

Sorry I keep making such long posts guys, I don't know where they come from. Theres just a bunch of info on this processor, heh.

[imported_Wreck]

Re: Building a new pc

Well I've heard speculation that Intel sent cherry-picked processors to the guys at XS to overclock, so they might be overclocking higher than the final product. Personally, I think it would be stupid of Intel to do such a thing, but thats just me. Then again, there's the thing about pre-release samples being generally worse than the final result (excluding cherry-picking) so they might indeed perform even better.

Every company sends cherry picked products to the first people to review. Thats just how the business is run.