shotgun range poll.

[Roger Smith]

For those of you that have used the shotgun a lot, you know that at after about four to six feet, the buckshot disappears and does NO damage what so ever. The culmination of my frustration on this subject came when i was about six feet away from a guy that didn't see me; i pounded the whole tube of shells into him, not one registered, they just disappeared into thin air. For the sake of game play, and realism, i would love for the shotgun to be able to at least reach out to say eight feet. (with proper spread and damage degradation over range)

[JaselNewpar]

How about No on increasing the length, and just set it so it incrementally reduces damage per 5 feet or so.
Then at 20 feet or so make them disappear.
This may sound unrealistic, but if you didn't make them disappear at some point, people would be shotgun sniping in hardcore mode.

[Roger Smith]

well thats exactly what my first post says "with proper spread and damage degradation over range" i absolutely think its ridiculous for something to disappear into thin air. so ya, with proper buck spread and damage decrease over range, you wouldn't have shotgun snipers. we are on the same page, maybe i just didn't explain myself properly.

that being said, i even think the lethal range should be increased just a few feet. as is, you have to be almost point blank to get a one shot. As far as balance goes, i do think the weapon is unbalanced with the other weapons of the game. the shotgun should be a master of cqc, right now, machineguns, smgs and assault rifles all do the job much better because of their quick lethality at any range.

[Keyelite]

This may sound unrealistic, but if you didn't make them disappear at some point, people would be shotgun sniping in hardcore mode.

And whats the explanation you will have to give for those who play softcore mode?

Shotguns seem fine to me

[[7IR]581|Pvt.Md2a]

The poll is very biased.

[Keyelite]

The poll is very biased.

Agreed. Shotguns are FINE.

[CptainCrunch]

Voted no because the poll is biased.

Shotguns are fine. Just ask Soge

On a side note, at least its not to nerf the shotgun.

Crunch

[Roger Smith]

Shotguns seem fine to medo you use shotguns for serious play? ever?


The poll is very biased.indeed it is :), we have agree, don't care, and dumb. think of it this way, what if the smg bullets or the pistol bullets disappeared into thin air, would you care then?

[TSlaw*]

I honestly think, they should be shooting slugs. But that's my personal opinion.

[jackal22]

maybe a sleight bit more range, just make the power stretch out a bit longer. besides at a further range you will have less pellets hitting any way so it wouldn't matter if the power was upped a bit.

[imported_Whiskey]

I think the shotties are fine. I've seen people shot and killed by them from 20-30 feet away on the killcam. They're deadly on close-quarters maps.

Having one shottie fire slugs and the other fire shot might be a good idea though.

[TrudgiN]

I think the shotties are fine. I've seen people shot and killed by them from 20-30 feet away on the killcam. They're deadly on close-quarters maps.

Having one shottie fire slugs and the other fire shot might be a good idea though.

Being able to switch a fire mode with the shotgun , OR even sacrefice your 3 nades/bandoilier for slug rounds :D

[iQue]

Range increased and less spread I think.

I have good memories from BF2142 :) You could kill someone 20 meters away with about 3 shots to the head with the Clark... ahh...

Although it's pretty fine the way it is, I can always use shotguns in other games.

[Spik3d]

You're not shooting slugs and it's perfectly fine.

[Webs961]

I'd like to see the rounds just not disappear into thin air, but they definitely should have a pretty nasty falloff.

[Roger Smith]

thanks webs, thats all i was trying to say here.

whiskey you have not seen people kill 20-30 feet away because the buck actually disappears into thin air about 5 feet away, so what you are saying is impossible, at least the first shotgun, thats the case.

[TSlaw*]

You're not shooting slugs and it's perfectly fine.

Way to go and ruin our fun thanks a lot man. I was saying it would be cool. And everyone was throwing in ideas. Not like we don't know that we aren't getting that already.

[TrudgiN]

thanks webs, thats all i was trying to say here.

whiskey you have not seen people kill 20-30 feet away because the buck actually disappears into thin air about 5 feet away, so what you are saying is impossible, at least the first shotgun, thats the case.

the auto shotgun w/ no grip goes like 10 meters or more

[Roger Smith]

i see, didn't know that. i am sure the other ones like 5 feet though.

[Kosek]

Its just stupid the range on it, it only killes at like 5 paces, where as in real life its way more.

[Repulse]

I like the shotguns, it could do with a little more range but it was intended as a close quarter weapon, nothing better than running about pipeline with a nice golden shotgun :-D.

[Micster]

A slight balanced range increase.

Spread can be reduced with Steady Aim, mirite?

[imported_Whiskey]

whiskey you have not seen people kill 20-30 feet away because the buck actually disappears into thin air about 5 feet away, so what you are saying is impossible, at least the first shotgun, thats the case.

There may be differences between the W1200 and the M1014, and grip vs no-grip, but I've not only seen it, I've been killed by it, and have killed with it. You can't just go by the "visual" distance where you see the shot "disappear". The actual killing effect is most definitely there at a distance of 20-30 feet (rough visual estimate - eg. Vacant...shooter is outside, shooting through window by dumpster, there is the diagonal width of the hallway between us, plus I am on the opposite side of the room shooting back at him through a 2nd window. There is no one else around, and killcam shows him clearly killing me). It does happen.

[-Spartan`II7^]

Its just stupid the range on it, it only killes at like 5 paces, where as in real life its way more.

It's a video game.

Given the tiny map sizes, the shotgun is OK imo and yes, I use it as well.

[Sloi sauce]

How about No on increasing the length, and just set it so it incrementally reduces damage per 5 feet or so.
Then at 20 feet or so make them disappear.
This may sound unrealistic, but if you didn't make them disappear at some point, people would be shotgun sniping in hardcore mode.

How would shotgun sniping be any different from any other weapon in HC mode? It's already a one or two hit affair...

And I'm pretty sure you fellas are talking about YARDS, not feet. 20 feet is f*cking 7 meters away: I don't know about your shotgun loads, but mine would remove your face even at 10.

They messed up on the shotties, plain and simple. It sucks, because I'd use them if it wasn't for that.

[imported_Whiskey]

Nah, it's feet, not yards or metres. Compared to RL, yes, the shotties do have a fairly short range, but it's certainly not the "5 feet" some claim...maybe those folks are confusing ft with yds. Again, the grip attachment may make a difference, and/or the model of weapon.

[Davey]

I shoot sporting clays and pheasant pretty often, and the shells project farther than just 6 or 7 feet... Im just trying to say that the spread shouldnt get to large unless you cut the barrel off at the trigger... I think they should get less and less damaging over distance. This is the one reason I don't use shottys ingame. Just my opinion.

[Spik3d]

;1868445']Way to go and ruin our fun thanks a lot man. I was saying it would be cool. And everyone was throwing in ideas. Not like we don't know that we aren't getting that already.

I actually only read the OP and that's generally my response when I see somebody say that the accuracy for shotguns needs to be increased in-game.

[TSlaw*]

I actually only read the OP and that's generally my response when I see somebody say that the accuracy for shotguns needs to be increased in-game.

You could have made it more friendly.

[Cantina_Fly]

My biggest problem with the shotguns is the inconsistency of the hits. Point blank, yes, everything hits and everyone is happy, but when you get even a little bit out things get wonky in a hurry. I've played several full rounds as a shotgun whore wannabe. Point blank, deadly. Short range on out, it's anyone's guess. Sometimes I hit, sometimes I don't. My x-hair is fully covering the target and yet my hit % is 50/50 at best.

[Keyelite]

do you use shotguns for serious play? ever?


Yes,they are just about right. My team used them in a crossfire map and he was unstoppable. Literally. I will just hear a "bang" then blood come out from near a door. He even got a couple one shot kills from the hip at a good distance away. You just have to learn the range of the weapon and don't fire beforehand.

[Guiccia]

lol who's that 3% that doesnt know what a shotty is

[Kodakk]

Well, the poll could have been less biased IMO.

I honestly (not being a die-hard shotgun user) think they are fine. I know many people who can use them extremely effectively - SogeKing for example.

Similarly, I initially felt that a lot of different weapons could have been tweaked to perform better - the sniper rifles for example. However, once I actually spend hours and hours practicing, I learned everything about the gun. It's general accuracy, it's reload time, it's CQC effective range, etc.

So, applying that to the shotgun issue, maybe you just have to mess around with perk/attachment combinations and play styles in order to compensate for the less than realistic range. Yes, maybe after some experimenting the community will decide that the range needs a boost, but from my experience the range is just fine for the map sizes/gameplay.

[Chris_Redfield]

In Overgrown, I can get a kill from the A bomb site buildings 2nd front inner staircase floor, to the bottom corner. Thats about... 10 metres or so, which is roughly 30 feet. And thats with just one shot, with the semi-auto shotgun.

Id like the rounds to not to disappear, but were talking about shutguns here, after a specific point, the damage should fall to like.. 5 HPs per shell.

[The_Eliminator]

I'd like to see the rounds just not disappear into thin air, but they definitely should have a pretty nasty falloff.

yea i agree, i hate firing at a wall 10 feet away to make no impact whatsoever, the fragmentation seems to just disappear after a certain distance.

[Kayback]

The thing is the shotguns are NOT fine.

They work "ok" at best in close maps. But seriously, the spread you experience on them is idiotic and it proves that none of the developes have ever used a shotgun IRL. At 40 meters, you should still be dropping 75% of the shot in the chest area of a man sized target.

And I'm talking about 00 Buckshot here, through a full choke. 75% of 9 balls it still 6 9mm sized round hitting your chest. Thats a lot of lead on target.

Hell with NO choke you'd still only be getting around 1.2 meters of spread at 40m. In COD 4 you get 1.2 meters of spread at the muzzle.

They need to tighten the shotgun up by about 50% to make it equal in gaming terms. All it is good for is close quaters. It _can_ be used on semi longer ranges, but it's not that effective. IRL it would be wffective past 30m.

As it is I can slap an ACOG on my Skorpion and shoot the same disatances you can shoot an ACOG equipped M21......

I'd love the shotgun to have a slug option, but if there is any change to be made, I'd want a tighter choke, and to be able to pump the weapon faster. The guy using it also has NOT IDEA how to use a shotgun. You don't wait for the recoil to stop before you pump. And he pumps it too slowly.

This is me with my shotgun. 2 cases in the air, one in the chamber ready to rock again. True these are #7's and not combat loads, but I can do the same thing with SSG's, 00's, slugs....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Kayback/wppsa595.jpg
Thats 3 shots in the time it takes the first shell to hit the ground. What does the guy in COD4 do?

hee hee, one of the options should be a Vang barrel. Now can we say sniper shotgun?

[Chris_Redfield]

KBK, with a risk of sounding like an a-hole, but seriously man... stop. This is a videogame, and in order for it to be fun for everyone, it has to be balanced.

Let me in the one of the two buildings on Bloc, with a shotgun, and you stand no chance. Vacant? Same thing. Everyone would be running with shotguns, if the 10 yard/metre lethal distance they have now (roughly estimated, dont kill me), would suddenly turn into 40 yard one. Its like Quake/UT rail gun battles.

Hence- make a god damn reality mod for COD4! NOW! If it was pulled off well, Id be playing it.

[Kayback]

Balanced? How is it balanced? It's totally screwed up.

Lookit things like the M14. I now use that as my shotgun kit. Why? Because it also does single hit to kill shots, but I can also reach out and touch someone, and I have the rapid fire ability the shotgun lacks.

How is taking something like a shotgun, and then screwing it toally, balance? The ranges you fight over in COD4 are more or less what a shotgun is meant for. Let me inside either building in Block with my Skorpion, and you're just as screwed. Infact that's what I spend my time DOING on Block. Getting inside the other building, and killing campers.

The thing is my Skorpion is useful over the whole map. The shotgun isn't. It's been screwed so badly into one small nieche that there is no point in taking it.

I know this is a game. But again this is a game with a foot in realism. .50's kill outright. The 7.62x51mm recoils harder and kills quicker than the 9x18mm Makerov round. The 12 guage shotgun does what exactly? It spreads stupidly wide, it runs out of range stupidly quickly, and it fires waaaaay too slowly.

There actually isn't a role the shotgun does that another gun can't do, and do better. The spread doesn't even let you clip multiple targets. Any weapon fired from the hip on full auto has a better, more predictable spread.

Tweak one of those things, and the shotgun would be useful all round. Either tighten up the spread, or speed up the pump, or make the range bigger and you'll have a weapon that's used more widely.

I'd love a reality mod of COD4. Oh wait. They already did that. It's called Hardcore.

KBK

[Kodakk]

It's balanced because if the shotguns could fire accurately across the map - which is basically the distancing you are describing - it would be too powerful.

Shotguns are notorious for being deadly CQC weapons on video games, and they should be used for just that. If every gun was given the amount of realism that you desire for the shotgun, the game just wouldn't be balanced.

I made a shotgun kit yesterday and actually did quite well, meaning I was able to take off targets that I felt a shotgun should be able to hit.

*You want to reload/pump the shotty faster, use sleight of hand... There are perks for a reason.

[Chris_Redfield]

Balanced? How is it balanced? It's totally screwed up.

Its nigh perfect.


Lookit things like the M14. I now use that as my shotgun kit. Why? Because it also does single hit to kill shots, but I can also reach out and touch someone, and I have the rapid fire ability the shotgun lacks.

Bullsh!t, unless youre playing Hardcore, but in Hardcore, all weapon balance goes out of the window. As a matter of fact, the finely tuned weapon damage and HP balance in normal play doesnt count towards HC. If were going to argue about this subject, we need to specify what were talking about first.

Regular play- perfectly balanced
Hardcore- well, tough luck


How is taking something like a shotgun, and then screwing it toally, balance? The ranges you fight over in COD4 are more or less what a shotgun is meant for. Let me inside either building in Block with my Skorpion, and you're just as screwed. Infact that's what I spend my time DOING on Block. Getting inside the other building, and killing campers.

2 shots vs my 1? Hardly, I hardly miss inside Bloc buildings. Purely statistically, I have an upper hand. I also have the range advantage, since Scorp is taken back to 20HP right after 200 distance units.

But its all irrelevant. You want a RL shotgun, this is not an RL simulation. Gameplay balance, thats all that matters. Shotguns are there for a 1 shot close distance kills, and thats what they do. Whether or not the disappearance of buckshot at a distance is fair or not, Ive already expressed my opinion.


The thing is my Skorpion is useful over the whole map. The shotgun isn't. It's been screwed so badly into one small nieche that there is no point in taking it.

No its not. 20HP damage hardly makes it "useful" all across the map, when a pistol is a better choice.


But again this is a game with a foot in realism.

No. This is a game with references from real world. But the games fundament is still "gameplay balance". You might not like it, hence why I said "realism mod", but competitive players dig it rather well, and one of the reasons is because its just that damn well balanced.


.50's kill outright. The 7.62x51mm recoils harder and kills quicker than the 9x18mm Makerov round. The 12 guage shotgun does what exactly? It spreads stupidly wide, it runs out of range stupidly quickly, and it fires waaaaay too slowly.

Wait, youre content with multiple handgun shots to kill a person, even while shot in the head, yet youre complaining about shotguns being "unrealistic"? What?


There actually isn't a role the shotgun does that another gun can't do, and do better. The spread doesn't even let you clip multiple targets. Any weapon fired from the hip on full auto has a better, more predictable spread.

- Theres not a single gun that can kill with 1 shot at close distance, perks and HC excluded
- The spread does actually, for a fact, enable you to kill 2 people or would to 60HP if they are hit with just 1 pellet.
-Shotguns spread is much more predictable, than the spread of any assault rifle (SMGs excluded), LMG or unscoped sniper rifle. If the target is in the crosshairs, at 10 metres or less, and theres no lag, the target is dead with 1 shot. SMGs struggle with that, ARs will never reach that, shotguns pull it off on a regular basis.


Tweak one of those things, and the shotgun would be useful all round. Either tighten up the spread, or speed up the pump, or make the range bigger and you'll have a weapon that's used more widely.

-M3 Super 90
-Doubletap


I'd love a reality mod of COD4. Oh wait. They already did that. It's called Hardcore.

Not really a "reality mod" now, is it? Want a touch of sarcasm? FInd yourself another game.

[sava700]

I've got a Extrema2 Shot gun from Beretta... it can shot 12shots in less than 2seconds. Being a owner of the gun I can say its one of the best and most fun to shot guns I've ever fired. The game's shot gun should really be no different if your using a semi like this one. As for range...well I think its just fine in the game as it is.

Here is a video of it being used...I'm not as accurate as this guy but I can knock em down just as fast! :salute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk5zXbY-l2g

[Sloi sauce]

I don't understand people b*tching against improving the shotgun: just make it lose damage over distance more regularly than other weapons!

0-10 = 1 hit kill
11-20 = 2 hit kill
21-30 = 3 hit kill
etc

It would be a lot better than

0-10 = 1 hit kill
11-x = magically disappears in a wormhole in space

[Roger Smith]

what i am suggesting is not that they dominate the map at any range, i am suggesting that they be lethal BEYOND point blank. past that, they should not magically disappear, but they should spread and have a huge damage drop off. you people honestly do not understand what i am saying, or you do not choose to.

alright, so you say they are fine as is, and that you can own just fine with them, thats fine. but can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't do better in those close quarters with a different weapon? you are not always given the opportunity to corner your enemy. sometimes you are in very close quarters, but just not POINT BLANK; and your shells absolutely CAN NOT reach your opponents when they are feet away from you. so deny it if you must, you always do.

[Sloi sauce]

what i am suggesting is not that they dominate the map at any range, i am suggesting that they be lethal BEYOND point blank. past that, they should not magically disappear, but they should spread and have a huge damage drop off. you people honestly do not understand what i am saying, or you do not choose to.


I understand. I put it numerically, and you backed it up in plain English. :)

[Kayback]

Its nigh perfect.



Bullsh!t, unless youre playing Hardcore, but in Hardcore, all weapon balance goes out of the window.
Well HC is what I play. And the weapon balance isn't out. It's pretty accurate actually. I don't see why you say it goes out the window.All it does is highlight the drawbacks of a shotgun.



If were going to argue about this subject, we need to specify what were talking about first.
We're talking about the effect of a boost to the stats of a shotgun, are we not? Irrespective of the game type or style, HC or SC, the shotgun could do with a boost




2 shots vs my 1? Hardly, I hardly miss inside Bloc buildings. Purely statistically, I have an upper hand. I also have the range advantage, since Scorp is taken back to 20HP right after 200 distance units.
You hardly miss. Congratulations. Neither do I. However I find the weapon can't cycle fast enough to hit you and the guy with the AR next to you.



But its all irrelevant. You want a RL shotgun, this is not an RL simulation. Gameplay balance, thats all that matters. Shotguns are there for a 1 shot close distance kills, and thats what they do. Whether or not the disappearance of buckshot at a distance is fair or not, Ive already expressed my opinion. So you've got the shotgun YOU want, so we must all be happy and not express our own opinion? I just want game makers to stop screwing over the shotgun so seriously.




No its not. 20HP damage hardly makes it "useful" all across the map, when a pistol is a better choice. And how many pistols can carry an ACOG?




Wait, youre content with multiple handgun shots to kill a person, even while shot in the head, yet youre complaining about shotguns being "unrealistic"? What? Yes. It takes multiple handgun rounds to kill someone. That's believable. What's NOT believable is 9 .38 rounds vanishing into thin air at 12 meters. Each time you pull the trigger on a shotgun you are basically launching half an M9 magazine at the badguys in one shot. How can it fail to kill at the same ranges an M9 can? Multiple pistol shots to the head? Stop playing Softcore.




- Theres not a single gun that can kill with 1 shot at close distance, perks and HC excluded Why exclude HC? The shotgun doesn't benifit fromt he same boost the other weapons get.


- The spread does actually, for a fact, enable you to kill 2 people or would to 60HP if they are hit with just 1 pellet. I don't think I've ever seen two people die from a single shotgun hit. I've seen multiple people die from single 7.62mm hits, with deep impact and stopping power. I've seen it with a burst of ammo from an SMG in the same time it takes the guy to pump two shots out.


-Shotguns spread is much more predictable, than the spread of any assault rifle (SMGs excluded), LMG or unscoped sniper rifle. Why exclude SMG's ? The shotgun and the SMG are meant to fill the same nieche. CQB.


Not really a "reality mod" now, is it? Want a touch of sarcasm? FInd yourself another game. ALL the other games have the same BS with shotguns. They spread like a 'mofo, they can't shoot at range, the moron pumping the gun doesn't know how to do it properly, and they loose too much power over distance.

I'm not saying make them super duper weapons. I'm saying get them right. All the other guns in the game pretty much fill the role they should. The shotguns have been screwed.


Like Rodger and Sloi say, the shotgun should be able to work a little better than it does. I'm not saying I want an IRL shotgun, I'm saying the balance should be tilted a little more in the SG's favour.

KBK

[FPS[VT_NERD]]

Opinions are fine.

Biased poll options are lame.

If you want to have a meaningful poll, maybe next time make all the options valid. Thanks.

[Chris_Redfield]

Well HC is what I play. And the weapon balance isn't out. It's pretty accurate actually. I don't see why you say it goes out the window.All it does is highlight the drawbacks of a shotgun.

Weapon balance is out of the window, please dont argue. You do not have the refined SMG/AR role strenghts and weaknesses as they are pretty much the same stuff, with different wall penetration. Hell, in HC, I load up my USP, fill in the G3 macro and I own as if I had a Glock 18! Gangsta!


We're talking about the effect of a boost to the stats of a shotgun, are we not? Irrespective of the game type or style, HC or SC, the shotgun could do with a boost

Theres a HUGE difference whether were talking of HC or SC. Id start outlining the differences but thats irrelevant, common sense and would increase the wasted interweb space.


You hardly miss. Congratulations. Neither do I. However I find the weapon can't cycle fast enough to hit you and the guy with the AR next to you.

In HC, its easy mode. Spread is good enough to hit and kill you and the guy with an AR next to you. In SC, its all about positioning, changing positions and defensive movement. Provided I have practiced flick aiming and my hand is "warmed up", I can flick aim your head and his head and my only limitation would be the ROF of the weapon Im using. Using M3Super90, its not an issue. as a matter of fact, beefing up the range and ROF would make this weapon a rail cannon of heavenly retribution in my hands. 1 shot kills halfway across the map using a shotgun? Yes please. This will pretty much kill ARs and sniper rifles. Everyone would be running with either shotty.

The only change that wouldnt break the in game balance, would be to keep the damage of pellets at longer range (while decreasing their damage to miniscule numbers)


So you've got the shotgun YOU want, so we must all be happy and not express our own opinion? I just want game makers to stop screwing over the shotgun so seriously.

You want an IR shotgun, I want a weapon that fits the balance equation. For the record, Im not exactly happy with the shotguns, but I see their place in the equation. You dont.


And how many pistols can carry an ACOG?

Dont need an ACOQ to hit you halfway across the map.


Yes. It takes multiple handgun rounds to kill someone. That's believable.

Sorry? If I hit you in the head with a 9X19, will you regen?


What's NOT believable is 9 .38 rounds vanishing into thin air at 12 meters.

Gameplay balance. Boomstick means "godlike at close" and "puny at range".


Each time you pull the trigger on a shotgun you are basically launching half an M9 magazine at the badguys in one shot. How can it fail to kill at the same ranges an M9 can? Multiple pistol shots to the head? Stop playing Softcore.

You should really stop with these IRL references. COD4 takes visuals from RL, functionality is based on a balanced equation.


Why exclude HC? The shotgun doesn't benifit fromt he same boost the other weapons get.

But surely it does. Its a lot more forgiving. In SC, you need to hit the target chest on or head on, in HC, I can pretty much hit with only 30% of the pellets.


I don't think I've ever seen two people die from a single shotgun hit.

I dont think Ive got a screenshot, but HQ gamemode in SC Bloc meant a lot of

Foxhound|RED [shotgun] noobs x 2


Why exclude SMG's ? The shotgun and the SMG are meant to fill the same nieche. CQB.

IRL again... In COD4, its close, mid and long. ARs are universal, SMGs are great at close to mid and shotguns are excellent at close. Snipers are good only at long. Imagine a graph

Shotguns---------SMGs---------ARs---------Snipers
[-----------------------ARs-----------------------]


ALL the other games have the same BS with shotguns. They spread like a 'mofo, they can't shoot at range, the moron pumping the gun doesn't know how to do it properly, and they loose too much power over distance.

Accepted position for shotguns. Since the engagement ranges in games are usually close, if we took shotties 1:1 from RL, theyd be godlike, rail cannons of Quake universe.


I'm not saying make them super duper weapons. I'm saying get them right.

AKA, make them super duper, which is what they are if made "right".


Like Rodger and Sloi say, the shotgun should be able to work a little better than it does. I'm not saying I want an IRL shotgun, I'm saying the balance should be tilted a little more in the SG's favour.

If you cant use it, dont. I can use it well.

[CptainCrunch]

This is starting to become a mud sling thing. The martyrdom poll did much better.

Speaking of which, Roger, did you post your reasons on IWs official site? The martyrdom one is all over there.

Though the poll is biased and may not show the numbers, it seems obvious from the posts that most think the shotgun isnt up to par.

Crunch

[Kodakk]

Chris, this isn't a thread bashing HC/SC.

They are different play styles, please learn to accept that one game type is not "elite" - I'm getting sick of all the HC/SC bashing.

[Chris_Redfield]

Aerialz;1870173']Chris, this isn't a thread bashing HC/SC.

They are different play styles, please learn to accept that one game type is not "elite" - I'm getting sick of all the HC/SC bashing.

Where the hell do you see HC bashing? Please point me to the quote. Im getting sick of kids thinking that just because I mention something, automatically has negative emotions attached to it.

If you took my disagreement that HC = realism mod, then suck it up.

Yes, Im tired. So Im going to be frank.

[Sloi sauce]

I didn't browse through the thread, so at the risk of repeating something that's already been addressed...

Can somebody explain why there is opposition to an increase in effective range along with an inversely proportional decrease in damage? It seems like people disagree with this but don't offer any explanation why.

It sounds like a pretty reasonable suggestion for a future patch.

[Chris_Redfield]

I didn't browse through the thread, so at the risk of repeating something that's already been addressed...

Can somebody explain why there is opposition to an increase in effective range along with an inversely proportional decrease in damage? It seems like people disagree with this but don't offer any explanation why.

It sounds like a pretty reasonable suggestion for a future patch.

Acceptable change- make it so that the pellets dont "disappear" into thin air, but fly longer, while inflicting very little damage (5 HP)

Not acceptable change- make it so that shotguns had a much smaller spread and inflicted damage over longer range, also increasing their ROF.

Why do I think so?

Two reasons,
- to not to make shotguns rail cannons which can be used better than SMGs at all SMG ranges.
- to not to overpower shotguns

You think people are crying bad with grenade launchers? Wait until you see "shotgun noob" messages :laugh:

[Kodakk]

In HC, its easy mode. Spread is good enough to hit and kill you and the guy with an AR next to you. In SC, its all about positioning, changing positions and defensive movement.

That maybe? You take such offense.

[Carbon_Snake]

If you increase the shotgun range you need to decrease the power because if you dont the servers will be flooded with bunny hopping shotgun whores

[Chris_Redfield]

Aerialz;1870194']

In HC, its easy mode. Spread is good enough to hit and kill you and the guy with an AR next to you. In SC, its all about positioning, changing positions and defensive movement.

That maybe? You take such offense.

The subject was shotguns, in HC, shotguns also perform considerably better. Now, go and try to find where I actually did say something bad about HC.

Amusingly, it wasnt me who took offense.

[Sloi sauce]

If you increase the shotgun range you need to decrease the power because if you dont the servers will be flooded with bunny hopping shotgun whores


Acceptable change- make it so that the pellets dont "disappear" into thin air, but fly longer, while inflicting very little damage (5 HP)

That's precisely what I proposed. Increased range with progressively decreasing damage...

Every other gun does this; why are shotguns different? Increase the maximum range from 500 to 800 or so and create a minimum damage of, say... 10x10 with an increased spread instead of 40x10.

This would work fairly well.

[Roger Smith]

Acceptable change- make it so that the pellets dont "disappear" into thin air, but fly longer, while inflicting very little damage (5 HP)after about 8 feet away there should be a steep damage drop off and the spread should start thinning out. they key is that the weapon is not effective in medium range, but highly effective at close quarters.

Not acceptable change- make it so that shotguns had a much smaller spread and inflicted damage over longer range, also increasing their ROF.did anyone propose this? i sure didn't!

- to not to make shotguns rail cannons which can be used better than SMGs at all SMG ranges.the smg is effective at rifle ranges, all i am asking is that shotguns be effective in cqc, without avoiding engagement after 10 feet away.

You think people are crying bad with grenade launchers? Wait until you see "shotgun noob" messages :laugh:the grenade launcher is a tactical weapon, its good for taking out campers behind cover. it only takes an instant to die from gunfire in hardcore, so really, using the tube as a primary will most of the time lead to failure. people who whine about play style and weapon usage do not understand tactical gaming and will always whine. that being said, nothing i have suggested would change the shotgun into a hated weapon, it still would not have medium range. you would still be able to easily dispatch shot gunners very quickly. the difference is that the shotgunner would have a fair chance and not be against the odds.

[iQue]

Shotguns---------SMGs---------ARs---------Snipers
[-----------------------ARs-----------------------]


That was a pretty nice graph, cause it shows exactly how it really is in the game. If it was more like this:


-----Shotguns----SMGs---------ARs---------Snipers
[-----------------------ARs-----------------------]


...I'd be more happy :) A shotgun in a game is supposed to be extremely powerful in CQC, but it shouldn't be handicapped at over 10 meters. Even though you don't do much damage you should at least be able to hit something.

With risk of being a fanboy here, BF2142's Clark got it perfectly right. Extremely powerful in CQC and not-too-bad at up to 15 meters.

Could you guys please stop the ego bashing as well? Thanks.

[TSlaw*]

I'm almost inclined to come in here and ask Chris to just stop posting in this thread. I mean it has turned a poll (biased one at that) into should we change the shotgun/lets just sit here and insult each other.

[CptainCrunch]

:locked:

[Sloi sauce]

No, don't lock this thread... we're finally getting somewhere!

[Chris_Redfield]

after about 8 feet away there should be a steep damage drop off and the spread should start thinning out. they key is that the weapon is not effective in medium range, but highly effective at close quarters.

Thing is, with 8 feet, you wont even cover a room. 8-10 metres optimum lethal range, with a severe drop in damage over just a few metres, into SMG range at sub-minimum damage at 5 DMG per pellet.

So it would look akin to this

> - 10 metres -|-drop in damage 3 metres-|-min damage of 5HP per pellet, SMG range >|


all i am asking is that shotguns be effective in cqc, without avoiding engagement after 10 feet away.

Seriously now. Shotguns are lethal at even 5-8 metre distance. Occasionally even at 10. Thats 15-30 feet. More than adequate for a shottys functionability as a one shot kill weapon.


the difference is that the shotgunner would have a fair chance and not be against the odds.

Shotgun was never meant to be a universal weapon, like Assault Rifles are. Which means that in order to keep an advantage with a shotgun, you need to be in an area which favours you tactically. Shotguns also require quite a lot more skill, which further enhances its status as a specialized weapon. For all intents and purposes, shotgunners already have a fair chance. They are not against the odds.

[Roger Smith]

Chris, i give up trying to discuss it with you, its just going back and forth. I will say this, i am most likely retarded when it comes to measuring distance. So in the simplest terms.

I fire at a target that SHOULD be well within my range. The buck disappears before it gets to its target. End of freaking Story. And i am talking about the first shotgun as well, not just the second.

The shotgun shouldn't be a status weapon that only guys that think they are l33t use. It should be a close quarters weapon, NOT a POINT BLANK weapon.

Now theres two shotguns and they perform very very differently, so we may just be speaking from one end of the spectrum against the other.

[waaah_wah]

Seriously now. Shotguns are lethal at even 5-8 metre distance. Occasionally even at 10. Thats 15-30 feet.

I really hope we'r not talking about how shotguns perform IRL here... Coz a shotgun is effective FAR beyond 10 meters

[Roger Smith]

obviously this is a game and not real life. but in hardcore mode its more of simulator than it is arcade. that being said, if the assault rifles and sub machine guns perform closer to real life, so should the shotgun.

[iQue]

but in hardcore mode its more of simulator than it is arcade.

:laugh:

Sorry but that just cracks me up.

[Roger Smith]

well its true, funny to you or not.

[waaah_wah]

:laugh:

Sorry but that just cracks me up.

Yup. Me too:D


well its true, funny to you or not.

Not really no...

[Kylee!]

Ha, Wahh, don't you mean that we're talking about PR?

What about the shotguns in PR? Huh? Huhhhh?

I do see your point Smith, like... why do the pellets just disappear after a certain distance.

Yay, another CS reference... but anyway, lets take the pump shotty in that game, it does very high damage close range, but if fired at targets more than it's effective range, it will still do some damage, but because of the random and increased spread of pellets, it won't be as accurate... but it will still do damage. It's also kinda lucky, because of the random spread of the pellets, but you get teh point.

[Keyelite]

Shotguns do what they are suppose to do.. one shot kill at close range. You will have NO chance taking someone out that has a shotty clearing a room-- you just can't put bullets into them fast enough.

Your implying that shotguns should be more versatile, hell why don't we strap an acog to the shotgun and snipe with it then! I'm sure IW is down for that.

[Roger Smith]

Shotguns do what they are suppose to do.. one shot kill at close range.not close range, virtually point blank.



You will have NO chance taking someone out that has a shotty clearing a room-- you just can't put bullets into them fast enough.i assume the room you are talking about is an outhouse.


Your implying that shotguns should be more versatile, hell why don't we strap an acog to the shotgun and snipe with it then! I'm sure IW is down for that.and you sir are stretching the truth and taking my comments out of context. i want a shotgun to shoot across a room not across a long hallway. as is, the shotgun buck will disappear before it gets halfway across the room.

[iQue]

Ok wait a sec what shotgun are we talking about here?

[Kodakk]

Ok, well:

Yes, maybe it is intended for short range... but that doesn't mean the bullets need to disappear - it should simply become ineffective at the proper range.

That's the main point I think Roger is trying to get across, and I agree that the bullets should not "disappear" and should leave you with at least a smigin of a chance to get a hit.

[Roger Smith]

yeap. but i am also saying the steep damage/spread drop off should occur a couple paces farther then they disappear as of now, at least from across a freaking room.

[Kodakk]

Ok, I just tested it (so did Keyelite).

Currently uploading a video that clearly shows the bullets disappearing.

[Roger Smith]

u test it with both shotties?

[Kodakk]

Nah, just the pump - if somebody else wants to test the other one feel free... I'm no longer in this debate as it is arguable either way, I'll just post it up for people to see.

[waaah_wah]

What about the shotguns in PR? Huh? Huhhhh?


What about them..?

[Keyelite]

http://files.filefront.com/shotguntestdm+1/;9729343;/fileinfo.html

If you are lazy, here is a gif of the maximum range.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9953/shotgunrangece2.gif
My kit:
Pump Shotgun
Grip
Stopping power
Deep impact

Here is a good tip: Don't zoom in, there is no point. And auto shotgun is terrible to begin with, they lower the damage to balance it out with the other shotgun. Also, notice how it also tells you if you are in range with the red crosshair.

So whats this point blank I keep hearing about?

[Kodakk]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ygAC5HI0ltU

Let it be known!

[sogek1ng]

http://files.filefront.com/shotguntestdm+1/;9729343;/fileinfo.html


Here is a good tip: Don't zoom in, there is no point. And auto shotgun is terrible to begin with, they lower the damage to balance it out with the other shotgun. Also, notice how it also tells you if you are in range with the red crosshair.

So whats this point blank I keep hearing about?



Wow the shot gun is fine. I only use it to make the game fair. Nothing better then the auto shotty. 4 fast shots, knife and 3 nades. That is all you need in the world. If you can aim with the shotty two shots can kill from far. Just reload, if someone has a weapon that is long range, take cover and cook a nade. Or run to them and knife em.

Nothing needs to be changed or added. I enjoy the shotgun for fun up close combat. I love to knife, and the shotty is my anti knife. So i am really using the shotty for after my knife kills, then once its time. I can go back an knife again.

gold shotty ftw!

[Keyelite]

Yep, lol soge I remember the damage you can do with the shotty

[Roger Smith]

unconvinced.

the stock weapon and on hardcore.

the only reason i am unconvinced is that i have been much closer, even using sites for a perfect shot. i unloaded an entire tube into a guy, not one point of damage. ill do more STOCK HARDCORE testing tonight.

[sogek1ng]

unconvinced.

the stock weapon and on hardcore.

the only reason i am unconvinced is that i have been much closer, even using sites for a perfect shot. i unloaded an entire tube into a guy, not one point of damage. ill do more STOCK HARDCORE testing tonight.



Are you talking about the aim, or stock shotty's range?

I don't know too much about HC with the shotty's, cause it's pointless. All guns do the same damage, the shotty is almost pointless. ALMOST, meaning not all the way.

Only thing I can say is while taking aim always aim to the right, and kinda high. I get more head shots then body shots most times. Also jumping and using the shotty is uber leet. It makes for perfect head shots too.

Also if you shoot more then twice you should be in knifing range, so why in the heck would you shoot anymore?

[Chris_Redfield]

The shotgun shouldn't be a status weapon that only guys that think they are l33t use. It should be a close quarters weapon, NOT a POINT BLANK weapon.

- They are not just point blank weapons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04ojLAxpH08&feature=related

- A shotgun is a 1 shot 1 kill weapon, which is precisely why it should be an "uber l33t" weapon


I really hope we'r not talking about how shotguns perform IRL here... Coz a shotgun is effective FAR beyond 10 meters

Brilliant, just... brilliant. Holy sh!t... :rolleyes:

[TSlaw*]

- A shotgun is a 1 shot 1 kill weapon, which is precisely why it should be an "uber l33t" weapon


Then why were you firing 4 shots at a guy?

[Chris_Redfield]

;1870906']Then why were you firing 4 shots at a guy?

Thank you for sharing your lack of intellect with us.

1) This video isnt mind

2) There are a lot more things to consider, like lag, distance, ping, perks. The fact that he used 4 shots to kill someone at specific points does not overshadow him 1 shot killing most of his victims.

If you want to make a point, state your mind. If you want to be slapped, well...

[Kayback]

And it looks like he is playing HC anyway. Use the M14. Same job, 16 more rounds, and you can kill people across the map.

KBK

[Chris_Redfield]

And it looks like he is playing HC anyway. Use the M14. Same job, 16 more rounds, and you can kill people across the map.

KBK

I can tell you that. Im playing more SC than HC, and all of the shots and kills he made, are a standard in SC. Id even say he sucks, but oh well.

And you proved my point about weapon balance being out of the window in HC. Directly or indirectly.

[Kayback]

Sorry? If I hit you in the head with a 9X19, will you regen?

I've already said multi pistol rounds to the head isn't believeable. Now you're just being petty.

I did say, however, multi 9x18mm Makerov rounds (something the Skorpion uses, along with the .32ACP and 9mm Short) will take multiple rounds to the body to kill. That is believeable. If you don't want multi pistol headshots, play HC. Single brain shot with any gun = dead.

I'm happy to have proven your point that all the weapons in HC are deadly. They are meant to be.

However all the weapon in both HC AND SC perform pretty much like they should.

The shotguns simply don't.

They suffer from too many restricitons. Range, rate of fire, and spread. All of those are modeled on someone's misconception of a "scattergun".

The range of a shotgun is so low you might as well take those 2 steps and knife the enemy.

I'm also not asking for like a 1000000000000% increase in range. All I'm asking is for a little less redneck-I-gots-a-boomstick and slightly more actual shotgun.

If you doubled the range of the shotgun, it would be more versatile, but not totally own.

As it is, the shotgun doesn't fill any nieche besides SC one shot to kill up close and personal.

And I really hate seeing something as versatile as a shotgun relegated to that.

SO I'll bugger off and play my other game... better yet I go grab a box of ammo and head to the range.

KBK

[Sloi sauce]

I gave the shotties another chance tonight... and after repeatedly not having my shots register on someone who's ~10 meters away, I gave up on them.

I replaced that with one of the best kits I've made so far...

MP5 + Acog (increased distance)
Bandolier (because with this kit, you're staying alive a long time)
Stopping Power
Steady Aim (you're not really thinking of using the Acog, right?)

RapeCity.jpg

[Kayback]

I was giving the guns another go, but the visual of the guy shooting, pausing and only then working the forend made me want to throw things at my screen, so gave up.

KBK

[TSlaw*]

Thank you for sharing your lack of intellect with us.

1) This video isnt mind

2) There are a lot more things to consider, like lag, distance, ping, perks. The fact that he used 4 shots to kill someone at specific points does not overshadow him 1 shot killing most of his victims.

If you want to make a point, state your mind. If you want to be slapped, well...

Mmmk. Well you first off didn't state it wasn't yours, then you say "Thank you for sharing your lack of intellect with us." and then go spell mine with a d. Ya. Here you go with that "should we change the shotgun/lets just sit here and insult each other." I said earlier. Way to go.


And the video, you stated it takes one shot, and even if the video isn't your why would you post a vid with a guy using a shotgun taking 4 shots for about all of his kills?

[Keyelite]

They suffer from too many restricitons. Range, rate of fire, and spread. All of those are modeled on someone's misconception of a "scattergun".

The range of a shotgun is so low you might as well take those 2 steps and knife the enemy.

If you doubled the range of the shotgun, it would be more versatile, but not totally own.


Actually, shotguns are pretty dead accurate within the range they are given. They also give you Grip and steady aim to make them even more accurate. With that said, there really isn't any spread. The rate of fire to instant kill someone seems pretty good right now. If you really want more rate of fire, equip double tap.

Well, the problem with knifing is that you have to wait till you pull out your gun again to knife all over. It's slow.

The range is fine too. If the shotgun had double the range, it would be incredibly unfair. And no, it will totally own in the right hands; then people will start complaining about it.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9953/shotgunrangece2.gif
Again, this is roughly the maximum range for the shotgun. Double that and well, we have problems.

Just learn the weapon, it is not hard. You have to be a certain distance before you can kill with it... the red crosshair tells you everything. And to be honest, there is no point in shotguns in hardcore.

[TSlaw*]

*snip*....And to be honest, there is no point in shotguns in hardcore.

That's because the Pistol owns EVERYTHING in hardcore :yay:

[Sloi sauce]

The range is fine too. If the shotgun had double the range, it would be incredibly unfair. And no, it will totally own in the right hands; then people will start complaining about it.

Again, this is roughly the maximum range for the shotgun. Double that and well, we have problems.

Just learn the weapon, it is not hard. You have to be a certain distance before you can kill with it... the red crosshair tells you everything. And to be honest, there is no point in shotguns in hardcore.

There's nothing to learn. If I'm ~10 meters away from a STATIC target, taking perfectly centered shots and none of them register until I cross half that distance, something is f*cking wrong with the weapon.

You can easily double the range and decrease to a minimum damage of 15 or 20 for each pellet, instead of the maximum damage of 40. There's no excuse, the shotties are broken.

[Sloi sauce]

Sloi, shotties arent broken. Dont use them as SMGs. End.

I'd say not being able to hit a static target from 10 meters with a perfectly centered reticle counts as broken. I don't see why you persist in defending shotties in their present form...

[Keyelite]

Wait until your cross hair turns red, then fire.

I'm just saying, there are those who are devastating with the current shotgun-- giving them even more power is going to make it incredibly unfair. Eventually people will figure this out and exploit the shotgun and its power, just like they do in every game... they try to find that "perfect" kit to kill everyone.

[Chris_Redfield]

I'd say not being able to hit a static target from 10 meters with a perfectly centered reticle counts as broken. I don't see why you persist in defending shotties in their present form...

Yes. Right. Because the inability to kill a chopper in BF2 even though youre shooting right through the cockpit, means they are completely broken. You managed to circumvent that. I managed to circumvent the "10 metre problem". Although my solution was much simplier. I get to 9 metres and shoot then.

Each map in COD4 has a specific spot where shotguns become the nr.1 weapon of choice, but because of them being useful in such places only, makes them a nr.2 weapon of choice. You need to understand, that in order to pick the shotgun, situation has to favour the choice. Shotguns will never be a substitute for SMGs nor will they be a sub for AR (in game). They are, right now, a weapon of choice for a specific task.

Accept that, and you will accept 4:1+ KDR.

[L3adcannon]

Been whoring the shotgun for the past month and they are just fine, wtfhax-fine if you`re good at the game. Of course some extra distance wouldn`t hurt, but then shotty--whoring would become common and annoying like it is in CoD2.
Pipeline, Block and Vacant are just rapetowns.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04ojLAxpH08&feature=related

That vid gave me a hard-on, brb.

[Chris_Redfield]

Pipeline, Block and Vacant are just rapetowns.

Probably the best shotgun maps, as the locations to rape with the gun are close to each other. In maps like Crash, you need to work your way through some open ground and it can get ugly. Perhaps the worst thing for a shotgunner, is exactly that, working your way through the area to reach the spots where you can whore it up. But thanks to a very helpful individual, I have my USP conveniently converted into a Glock 18C, which solves the problem without the need going into "Overkill". As a matter of fact, using the Glock 18C was perhaps the most satisfying thing next to shotguns. Who needs an MP5 anyway? USP + pixie dust = G18C (40 HP damage, reasonable range, high ROF)

[Kayback]

So to get the shotgun to work, you exploit the pistol kit. Got it.

But seriously. I've been using the shotguns pretty extensively since we started this debate. I was wanting to make sure my arguments weren't based on flawed info, and they aren't. The shotguns are as crap as i though they were. There are plenty of weapons that offer other advantages, except the one very small market that the shotgun can work in.

I just think you are overly punished for getting to the shotguns "sweet spot".

Even something like Vacant. This is a seriously well designed CQB map. i absolutely love it. But firing from one side of a ROOM to the other, with the shotguns, can = no kill. Even with the target dead in your sights. This is garbage.

Not only that, but if you move anywhere out of that room, the shotgun is almost useless. It can't even shoot down one of the cross corridors. And they are really short.

Like you said, shotguns aren't a substitute for SMGs. But they should be. You trade ROF for the instagib, but sacrifice too much range.

Like I said, I've been playing with the shotguns, and they _can_ do wonders, but I'm not convinced they aren't broken. They should be a little more all round. And I'm not talking shooting across Bog, I'm talking about shooting from outside the "cafe" on the side, to the opposite door. Something they can't do.

You're better off using your pistol.

KBK

[Chris_Redfield]

So to get the shotgun to work, you exploit the pistol kit. Got it.

:D

Dont get me wrong. I dont exploit the pistols, using a macro, in order to "pwn". I dont need high scores or KDR. They are nice to have, but fvck them. I absolutely LOVE an auto-pistol that kills, as a concept. Its awesome. Using a full auto USP is exactly like I said, like using a virtual Glock18C, its awesome. Feels fun and cool.


Like I said, I've been playing with the shotguns, and they _can_ do wonders, but I'm not convinced they aren't broken. They should be a little more all round. And I'm not talking shooting across Bog, I'm talking about shooting from outside the "cafe" on the side, to the opposite door. Something they can't do.

Hence me agreeing with the change of shotgun pellets NOT disappearing into thin air, but going further, down to a specific HP damage and not below that, with a maximum range of as long as an SMGs perhaps. This means that you can hit and damage people that are out of shotguns instagib range. Even killing wounded folks.

[imported_Whiskey]

I just played a 3 vs 3 round on Vacant...our team all had either SMG's or AR's, and the other used shotties. We got murdered. The only time we had a chance is if we worked in pairs so the 2nd guy might finish the shottie off. I was constantly surprised by how far they actually reached. Same with Shipment. This wasn't a HC server either.

I think they're a specialty weapon, like a sniper rifle. When used in the proper situation, by a skilled user, they're deadly. I think if they were given any more range, it would be too easy to use, and the game would degenerate into n00bism and people would go ballistic. I seem to recall this being the case in the early days of COD2.

[Keyelite]

I think they're a specialty weapon, like a sniper rifle. When used in the proper situation, by a skilled user, they're deadly. I think if they were given any more range, it would be too easy to use, and the game would degenerate into n00bism and people would go ballistic. I seem to recall this being the case in the early days of COD2.

BINGO!
They are perfect for the job they have to do. No one can stop someone who is dead accurate with a shotgun. It's like saying to make the scope of the sniper zoom in faster so they can use it in a closer range.

And plus, no one likes a little challenge? It seems like you guys are trying to use the shotgun as a substitute of an SMG. DON'T. You need to know how to use the environment around you to your advantage. If you see a guy, take cover and see if he would come after you, if not, move up closer to another area of cover, etc, until you are in range. If you are too far away, stun or retreat to another kill.

[Sloi sauce]

The shotguns are as crap as i though they were. There are plenty of weapons that offer other advantages, except the one very small market that the shotgun can work in.

Even something like Vacant. This is a seriously well designed CQB map. i absolutely love it. But firing from one side of a ROOM to the other, with the shotguns, can = no kill. Even with the target dead in your sights. This is garbage.

You're better off using your pistol.



Pretty much.

You can't hit a perfectly centered, immobile target from 10 meters! People defend that!?

Bahahahahahahahaha! GTFO here. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/bowrofl.gif

[Keyelite]

define 10 meters, do you have a screen shot and or video of this?

[Roger Smith]

i am making one tonight.

[Sloi sauce]

My numbers are estimates... but yes, it's definitely in the 10-15 meter range. Even if we assumed it reached 20 meters, it would still be completely inexcusable.

[Chris_Redfield]

Sloi, imagine this for a second.

Your wish gets granted, we get shotguns with lethal range of 50 metres. You join a random server, own some newbies, seem happy with a 5:1 KDR. Then, along comes Polly, a UT player, and completely devastates you, making your KDR 1:5. Hilarity ensures when you start posting posts about shotguns being overpowered.www

Its perfect right now, the philosophy, that is. You need to work hard, you need to have a high skillset, and you can only use it in limited circumstances. But when youve met all criterias, youre unstoppable. No, you dont need shotguns to become universal weapons.

[Roger Smith]

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8915/cod4sgft3.gif (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUkWiN653WY)

click the image to see a higher quality version

[Salad Snake]

Although it's pretty fine the way it is, I can always use shotguns in other games.

Which is pretty much admitting it's uselessness in this game. ;)


The shotgun isn't. It's been screwed so badly into one small nieche that there is no point in taking it.

There actually isn't a role the shotgun does that another gun can't do, and do better.

This is pretty much my opinion of the shotgun. The auto might be different, but the pump's useless.


- They are not just point blank weapons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04ojLAxpH08&feature=related


Good lord those enemies have poor aim. On any regular pub that guy would be dead after the first, maybe second shottie round.

The worse one was after he killed that guy on the railing, then somehow managed to strafe out of fire the distance of the whole alley to that crate.

At that distance (>20meters), you should be able to lock on to a sprinting target (even running perpendicular to you) with your line of fire in under 2 seconds (I'd say normally I'd see about 1.3-.4 seconds before someone sprinting perpendicular would start getting hit). This is with ironsights btw, I imagine hip-firing would take a bit longer.

For this reason, it's very hard to get into shottie range. Even indoors sometimes it won't go the full length of the room. Sure you can zip in and out of walls or something, but if he's got deep impact, you're still screwed.

I would definitely like greater range for the shottie, at least the pump. I mean, I'd rather take a sniper rifle with me as a main weapon then a shottie. And definitely an SMG.

[iQue]

This is pretty much my opinion of the shotgun. The auto might be different, but the pump's useless.

Far from useless, but not on all maps. And as this whole thread is about, the range is ridiculous.

The semi-auto shotgun range is actually pretty fine to me since you can just spam four shots. It's pretty weird that IW rewards spamming shots with the semi-auto shotgun when the pump (that requires precise aiming more) has the same crappy range and just a little extra damage.

CoD4 must have the most nerfed shotguns of the most games ever made.


Good lord those enemies have poor aim. On any regular pub that guy would be dead after the first, maybe second shottie round.I remember seeing that video on youtube right after the game was released ;)

[Chris_Redfield]

I remember seeing that video on youtube right after the game was released ;)

Psst, dont tell him that. He may think that its the best shotgunner and base his opinion on that. :rolleyes:

Roger, that range is about the maximum lethal range, at about that range, I get a 1 shot kill.

[Sloi sauce]

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8915/cod4sgft3.gif (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUkWiN653WY)

click the image to see a higher quality version

That's f*cking ridiculous. Yes, very balanced! http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/bowrofl.gif

Chris, I already made it clear that I want an increased range with the necessary adjustment for damage. They wouldn't be any more lethal than they already are: this way, however, my shots would actually connect, as opposed to disappearing.

[Keyelite]

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8915/cod4sgft3.gif (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUkWiN653WY)

click the image to see a higher quality version



What was your kit?

Also, try not zooming in. The point of a shotgun in real life is so you DON'T have to bring it to eye level all the time. Same concept applies in COD4

If you do not zoom in, you see the crosshair. If it turns red, it is an instant kill or near instant kill.

[Roger Smith]

Roger, that range is about the maximum lethal range, at about that range, I get a 1 shot kill.and just one step back from that range, and you get no kill, and no damage is delivered.


What was your kit?
it was the first shotgun, unmodded, which is the entire point i am trying to make here.

Also, try not zooming in. The point of a shotgun in real life is so you DON'T have to bring it to eye level all the time. Same concept applies in COD4what does that have to do with anything, the buck still disappears at that range with or without your iron sites.

If you do not zoom in, you see the crosshair. If it turns red, it is an instant kill or near instant kill.this is hardcore my friend, no crosshair.

[Keyelite]

Why are we trying to use shotguns in hardcore again?

We can't just focus on one aspect of the game (e.g. hardcore) and consider things broken because of which. If you tweak all the weapons to hardcore, when people play soft core it will be unbalanced.

Bringing the weapon to eye level confuses you at which distance you are at. Also, i was assuming it was softcore, where shotguns are the best for.

Also I mean what perks did you have with that kit?

I understand that the shotgun bullets disappear after a certain range. But don't you think the developers have a reason to implement a system like this rather than having a damage system like you describe?

[Roger Smith]

Why are we trying to use shotguns in hardcore again?every weapon should have a purpose in any game mode.

If you tweak all the weapons to hardcore, when people play soft core it will be unbalanced.i am not talking about changing the game in any way for softcore. the original post said, this thread applies to hardcore.

Also, i was assuming it was softcore, where shotguns are the best for.weapons should have a definite purpose in any game mode.

Also I mean what perks did you have with that kit?no perks that i could have had, would effect buck magically disappearing.

But don't you think the developers have a reason to implement a system like this rather than having a damage system like you describe?they may have a reason, i am just wondering if they could possibly be wrong on something. imagine that, a game developer not getting everything right.

[imported_Whiskey]

I'm not a "gun guru", but I respect the opinion of those who know their weapons and characteristics inside-out. I can understand how they'd be upset when things don't match up with their real-world equivalent.

Even though the word probably gets thrown around too much, "balance" is most likely the reason for the way shotties are set up in COD4. Again, the shotties (trench gun) was a HUGE complaint in COD2, due to the similar small-ish map sizes, and the power/range the weapons had. For the purposes of a multi-player game, I think they probably had to be nerfed a fair bit.

IW isn't perfect by any means, but I do think they put a lot of time and thought to weapon balance. Even so, there was the early COD4 example of the sniper rifles...they weren't "broken" per se, as lots of users figured out how to use them, but they operated differently than in the past and there were enough complaints that IW changed them. I think the COD2 shottie complaints were probably a big reason for the current COD4 shotgun settings.

[Roger Smith]

i can understand that and it makes a lot of sense. game play is the most important factor in my opinion and thats where i am coming from. i am not asking for the shotgun to be a brutal killing machine at all ranges, id just like it to perform properly in its role (cqc) and right now, across a room may be too far. all i am asking is for the buck to not disappear, and to have a massive spread/damage just a little farther than as is. its not a huge change, just enough for the weapon to come out from the corners and actually enter rooms.

[Salad Snake]

Psst, dont tell him that. He may think that its the best shotgunner and base his opinion on that. :rolleyes:

I don't know who you're directing that toward, but I think you'll agree with me that person wouldn't have gotten past the second enemy in that video nowadays.

[Keyelite]

Even though the word probably gets thrown around too much, "balance" is most likely the reason for the way shotties are set up in COD4. Again, the shotties (trench gun) was a HUGE complaint in COD2, due to the similar small-ish map sizes, and the power/range the weapons had. For the purposes of a multi-player game, I think they probably had to be nerfed a fair bit.

IW isn't perfect by any means, but I do think they put a lot of time and thought to weapon balance. Even so, there was the early COD4 example of the sniper rifles...they weren't "broken" per se, as lots of users figured out how to use them, but they operated differently than in the past and there were enough complaints that IW changed them. I think the COD2 shottie complaints were probably a big reason for the current COD4 shotgun settings.
yep


every weapon should have a purpose in any game mode.

Well, yes to a certain extent. Eventually it will come down to which weapon can do better in certain modes or scenarios.

I just don't understand, why you would want to use a shotgun so much in hardcore mode?

[Roger Smith]

because i play hardcore mode, and do not play softcore. i want to be able to use any weapon in any mode. i honestly do not understand how someone wouldnt want weapons to be balanced and fair in any mode.

[Kayback]

Also, try not zooming in. The point of a shotgun in real life is so you DON'T have to bring it to eye level all the time. Same concept applies in COD4

.

I get shouted at for using IRl examples and then you spout this garbage? This is why shotguns are so useless in games, because people don't understand how they are meant to be used IRL in the first place.

You have obviously never used a shotgun before IRL otherwise you'd know what you said is garbage. It's like saying the M60 and M249's should be fired from the hip as well. That may be how it's done in the movies but not IRL.

Shotguns may have simple sights on them, but many serious shotguns are being built with ghost ring or rifle sights on them. Hell look at the sights in that "clip". It's got ghost rings for a reason. To allow youto AIM properly.

Point shooting only works at extreme close ranges, and even then is discouraged by anyone who knows anything about firearms. Shotgun spread, IRL isn't enough to allow hip firing. It sticks too close together. People imagine a room splattered with shot when it will still be in a group the size of a dinner plate at 30 meters. While this does allow a bit more "margin for error" than a single projectile, it's better to aim your shot and make sure it's launched in the right direction in the first place.


As for your question "why do I want to use a shotgun in Hardscore so much" I offer this reply, Why not?

It's part of the game. Both Hardcore and the Shotguns are part of the game, and I'd like to play with both settings. Not only that, I like shotguns. Hell there is a reason I have a couple of hundred 12 guage rounds in my safe and why I'm building a 3-gun match shotgun.

I'd like to be able to play with them in the virtual world as well.

In harcore all the weapons have a more believeable effect on a person. In Softcore they can accept 3/4 a mag of 5.56mm in somesituations. In HC 3 to the chest and they are done. Single 7.62mm hits, single brainbox hits. All the other weapons seem to be done well in hardcore and softcore, except shotguns. They are simply outclassed hands down in Hardcore (and softcore). The best shotgun in HC is a M14. Like I said earlier, highers rof, bigger mag, longer ranges and still single hit to kills. Hell with Deep Impact you can hit multiple targets as well.

This isn't because the M14 is overpowered, it's a pretty accruate represantation. The Shotgun is overly weak. It fire's too slow, and it lacks range. Allow a more believeable drop off of damage, tighten the shot up a bit, and allow it to shoot faster (I'll admit double tap helps, but the animation is still stupid). The only thing we pretty much all want is a slkightly better thought out damage drop off. Stop vapourising the shot. Let it travel a little more, and nerf the damage if you must. Stop the "istagib here, party craker here" feature on it.

KBK

[Chris_Redfield]

I don't know who you're directing that toward, but I think you'll agree with me that person wouldn't have gotten past the second enemy in that video nowadays.

Right, and what has this anything to do with the argument at hand? Its a video piece showing shotguns effective range and to an extent, effective use. If you want to say that "the guy is a noob lulz" then you can keep the comment to yourself.

KBK, Hardcore is a sidetrack of COD4, weapon balance in COD4 works in regular play, not HC. Ive given you all the advice you can have. Position and skill, packed with experience. Shotguns are a specialized weapons, just like snipers. Its the proper use, that makes the difference between a 1:1 KDR sniper and 10:1 KDR sniper. Same with shotguns.

You cant use it? Fine. We can, so this means the shotguns arent (that) broken.

[Kayback]

And I've thanked you for that advice, and I'm trying to use it.

The shotgus in the game aren't shotguns. They are a game designers pathetic attempt at making something in a game. They shouldn't carry the name shotguns. They should be called instagib contact range weapons. The rest of the "weapons" in the game carry their real world atributes across quite well. The shotgun doesn't. Hell even in common media types at these ranges people would be picked up and thrown through plate glass windows. And that's just as wrong.

Explain how this is reprisentative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyQ86eug13c

True i'm shooting hot water cylinders and not people, next time I have some mates online (it's 9 am here) I'll do the same test,but with some targets.

Where did the buckshot go?

I've agree that I probably can't use them, in the same way I can't snap shoot well enough to be a sniper. There is a reason my favourite kit is a UAV jammer, Dead silence and a supressed Skorpion. I like to be close to my targets so they are easy to hit, but I don't like them knowing I'm there. This is one reason I'd like to use a shotgun. What was that nois<BLAM!>. However even in Softcore, even with a supressed SMG, I stand a better chance of getting there alive than I do with a shotgun. With the shotguns it's more like <sneak> <sneak> <sneak> <sneak> see guy at other doorway <BLAM>out of range <BLAM>out of range <DEAD> cos he had an MP5.

The shotguns and the SMG's should have the same sort of chance against eachother. That's because they are meant to fil lthe same role in IRL and in the game. Close quaters, room clearing, in your face combat. The SMG get's it's kills by trading fire power for controlability and rate of fire. The Shotgun goes to the other extreme and sacrifices rate of fire and in some cases range for huge firepower. This is something they get pretty right in COD4. The only problem is they don't do the "range" thing very well in my opinion.

And that's all it is. My opinion. That's what this topic was about. I honestly think the shotguns could do with a boost in range. And not even a big one.

[Salad Snake]

Stop vapourising the shot. Let it travel a little more, and nerf the damage if you must. Stop the "istagib here, party craker here" feature on it.

That's all I would want. I don't care if it does a single hp dmg, but let it do that dmg.

Well, maybe that's not completely true. I could do with a slight range-to-dmg increase, so that in an alleyway fight at about, say, 3/4 of a tennis court distance, the shotgun would still stand a chance against an SMG.

As it is, you are doing 0 dmg at that range. Something low like 30 (for the pump, little less for the auto) would be nice. That's 4, maybe three shots if you're lucky and he ate some shrapnel beforehand.

Edit: In fact the auto could keep it's current range, since it shoots so fast. But (and this is just my opinion), the pump could definitely use some range buffing and a tighter spread.


Right, and what has this anything to do with the argument at hand? Its a video piece showing shotguns effective range and to an extent, effective use. If you want to say that "the guy is a noob lulz" then you can keep the comment to yourself.

KBK, Hardcore is a sidetrack of COD4, weapon balance in COD4 works in regular play, not HC. Ive given you all the advice you can have. Position and skill, packed with experience. Shotguns are a specialized weapons, just like snipers. Its the proper use, that makes the difference between a 1:1 KDR sniper and 10:1 KDR sniper. Same with shotguns.

You cant use it? Fine. We can, so this means the shotguns arent (that) broken.

I never called that person in a video noob. I'm just saying if he tried those sorta stunts on any pub server, now, at this very instance, he would fail 49/50 times. Because an SMG would clearly have an advantage in most of those encounters.

I understand that hardcore is not balenced at all, that's why I don't play it too often. But the shotgun's performance in soft could definitely use an improvement.

Part of the problem is that SMG's and shotguns both occupy the close combat niche, though of course with totally different philosophies.

And as for that last paragraph, don't you think that's just calling people who want a better shotgun "noobs"?

Btw, I do believe this is one of the first times we've taken opposite sides in a debate Redfield. ;)

[Chris_Redfield]

And I've thanked you for that advice, and I'm trying to use it.

Dont need to thank me, just try to utilize the tips and remember two main guidelines- good aim and better location.


The shotgus in the game aren't shotguns. They are a game designers pathetic attempt at making something in a game. They shouldn't carry the name shotguns.

So, the Assault Rifles arent Assault Rifles? SMGs arent SMGs? Amusingly, the only "real" class that actually does what their real life counterpart does, are sniper rifles. Even pistols arent pistols.


They should be called instagib contact range weapons.

And thats exactly what they are.


The rest of the "weapons" in the game carry their real world atributes across quite well.

I cant believe you can call yourself knowledgeable in real life weaponry after this statement. Im sure an assault rifle loses all of its power after 2000 inch distance? Inches... And Scorp surely loses 60% of its power in just 200 inches? Surely... Wait, whats that? "Gameplay balance"? Well, here you go!


Explain how this is reprisentative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyQ86eug13c

"Close contact instagib weapons". Past that range, you should be shooting with an SMG, or an AR.


Where did the buckshot go?


Wait, is someone forgetting that its A GAME?
However even in Softcore, even with a supressed SMG, I stand a better chance of getting there alive than I do with a shotgun. With the shotguns it's more like <sneak> <sneak> <sneak> <sneak> see guy at other doorway <BLAM>out of range <BLAM>out of range <DEAD> cos he had an MP5.

And heres the fundamental difference and flaw in your POV. You dont "just pick" a shotgun and go fragging. Its not an all around weapons class like SMG/ARs are. No. Not. Forget about it. No.


The shotguns and the SMG's should have the same sort of chance against eachother. That's because they are meant to fil lthe same role in IRL and in the game.

No. Wrong.

IRL =/= COD4

Reference from RL, not factual base.


The Shotgun goes to the other extreme and sacrifices rate of fire and in some cases range for huge firepower. This is something they get pretty right in COD4. The only problem is they don't do the "range" thing very well in my opinion.

Thats your own problem. Shotguns have an immense power, and a potential to one shot kill any target. One shot kills are balanced out. And they are balanced out well. Hence ARs and SMGs can be used anywhere, but not shotties.

[iQue]

I too, would like a little extra range for the shotguns. Not so I can wtfpwn with it but so that my shot doesn't just disappear. I don't care if the damage is crap, but it should at least hit.

But, the shotguns does absolutely not have to be buffed up in any way. What people are underestimating is the power of picking up weapons. Run into a few enemies in CQC, take them down without a problem with your trusty shotgun, switch your pistol with one of their AR's and you're ready for maximum ownage. Shotgun for close quarters and an AR/SMG/LMG for those longer ranges. It's silly how effective it really is.

Just a reminder ;)

/thread

[Chris_Redfield]

Im always dropping my pistol for the Benelli if I see it, no matter which map. I dont like Overkill perk as it messes up my orientation (I need to know which style I play), but once Im in the flow, I dont mind picking up stuff.

[Kayback]

I cant believe you can call yourself knowledgeable in real life weaponry after this statement. Im sure an assault rifle loses all of its power after 2000 inch distance? Inches... And Scorp surely loses 60% of its power in just 200 inches? Surely... Wait, whats that? "Gameplay balance"? Well, here you go!

It's not my fault they made the maps so damn small so the developers tweaked the weapons. Speak to the level designers.

As it is ALL the other weapons work similar to how they do IRL. 40mm grenades need to travel to arm,they are relative low velocity, they have looping trajectories, SMG's are controlable on auto but lack punch, AR's are the jack of all trades, battle rifles kick like mules but hit like the Hammer of Thor, they have natural penetration, grenades can be primed, pistols are rapid fire close in weapons....basically all the things they can do IRL, they can do in the game.

Shotguns have minimal reference to what they can do IRL.

Incidently, you're pretty much screwed if you are using your Skorpion outdoors IRL anyway. The stock of the weapon and it's crappy sights, coupled to the 9mm Mak round or worse, the .32ACP round means it's a short ranged weapon. You can shoot 50m with it, but you can do thatwith a 1911 as well. 200" is obviously a game balance issue, but it doesn't lose 100% of it's power like a shotgun. Having used one before I can say you're probably better off with a weapon like the Beretta 93R with stock, the VP-70 or the Glock 18 with a stock.

This is why i say the shotguns in the game shouldn't be called shotguns.I conceeded they are a gameplay balance, that doesn't stop them being TOTALLY USELESS at a range IRL the WAD would still be dangerous. giving them a slightly longer range means they would still be able out touch someone the other side of a room. It won't hurt them much, but it does mean you can inflict damage, giving you a chance.

The other weapons all do bring what they are noted for into the game, meaning it's reasonable to call them by their names. The Shotguns are more like Tazers. Fixed range projectiles.

I honestly don't see why you claim the shotgun and the SMG's aren't in the same class and insist putting the SMG's in the AR's all round class. Lookit the ranges. The SMG's are obviously close in weapons. The shotgun is as well.

I'm NOT saying I should be 1337 uber Pwner with the shotgun. I'm saying it would be nice for a change to play a game where they don't screw over the shotgun totally.

The "balance" they have in COD 4 with the shotgun is make it Godly at 9 meters 98 centimeters. At 10 meters 1 centimeter it is like you didn't even fire. It's not balancing out the one shot kill, it is making it pointless to shoot anything more than 10 steps away. Would it seriously change the shotgun if it did likes it does, for example 100% damage at 10 meters, 95 at 11, 90 at 12, 80 at 13, 70 at 15, 60/16, 50/17. 40/18. 30/19, 20/20, 10/21meters.

For example you'd still not get the insta gib, you'd still have the low capacity and the slow ROF. At least if you got suprised on the way to a choke point, you'd be able to discourage someone by actually hitting them with the shot.

Kill them? No.

Hit them? well if you can aim well enough.

A shotgun is not a scatter gun. Real world reference? Well when we have real world things like SAS, Marines, M4, G3, M14, 1911, USP, Specnaz and the like, why the hell NOT use a real world reference. No one can explain how the shot gets WIDER if you actually aim the shotguns.

Except for some dumb statement about "firing without aiming IRL".

Again, that's the flaw with people who don't know what they doing making games about guns, and giving them real world names. Nothing wrong with UT's Flak Cannon.....

KBK

[Chris_Redfield]

Again, that's the flaw with people who don't know what they doing making games about guns, and giving them real world names. Nothing wrong with UT's Flak Cannon.....

No. The people might know how a gun operates. Its your inability to understand how guns work in games. Here you proposed a 50% damage reduction at 17 metres. Thats a potential 2 shot kill a significant range. Before you havent played with people who have perfected the art to the cross of the T, you will never understand how dangerous that change might be. Amusing, but people with experience talk A and people without talk completely differently. So whom should you put your trust in?

And NO. All other weapons DONT work the same way their real life counterparts do. Were talking about a massive loss in projectile enegery over ranges of a couple of metres. You can explain that and you conveniently ignore this. The names and appearances of guns are the only thing taken from IRL. Their functionality is entirely built up on gameplay balance. Accept it.

I can understand you want to enjoy a boomstick, and cant do so because its hard. I dont use a sniper rifle because its too hard. But the second you change a shotty to something more useful at universal ranges, than an SMG, the servers will be flooded with them, and there are more people with better aim than you are. Would you love to play instagib games where you stand 0 chance? Say YES and I will call you a liar.

Every newbie proposes a change of buffing or nerfing something without the slightest regard on what could happen if the tables were turned.

No offense, but you dont have a clue. Coming up with the almost, nigh perfect weapon balance in COD4 is a miracle in the gaming world. The bottomline is, every weapon suits for a specific task, specific map. You think all SMGs are great at all situations? No. Hence Scorp only being good at 2-3 maps. The way it works is, you have Vacant, and out of all SMGs you pick scorp, because it suits Vacant the most. If you have Overgrown, you pick the most accurate SMG with the most stopping power for its accuracy.

Transfer this to shotguns. If the distance isnt favouring it, you dont pick it. You dont pick it, thats that simple.

[Kayback]

And NO. All other weapons DONT work the same way their real life counterparts do. Were talking about a massive loss in projectile enegery over ranges of a couple of metres. You can explain that and you conveniently ignore this. The names and appearances of guns are the only thing taken from IRL. Their functionality is entirely built up on gameplay balance. Accept it.

Their functionality does reflect their IRL roles. I don't see how you can't agree on this.

For example. The M14. In game, it's a hard hitting, hard recoiling, semi auto weapon with 20 rounds in the mag. IRL, suprisingly, it is a hard hitting, hard recoiling weapon, with 20 rounds in the mag.

The M4? In game it's a softer recoiling, medium damage 30 round gun. IRL? It's a 5.56mm that shoots wonderfully on full auto, it holds 30 rounds, and the 5.56mm is up for debate, still, on it's damage. Personally I think in the ranges you get in COD 4, the 5.56mm doesn't do enough damage.

People think of a Desert Eagle. In real life it's a low capacity, large damage weapon. What is it in the game? Wow. A low capacity, large damage weapon.

The previously named weapons fit the same role in the game as they do IRL. They sacrifice hitting power for full auto controlability. The AR's and SMG's work better at spray and pray than the Battle Rifles. That's all true to form.

The Shotguns? Irl they are fast, efficient, low capacity, high damage weapons with limited spread and a semi short range. What are they in the game? Tazers.

The other weapons can all shoot across a map. The shotgun is the only one which can't. I accept that. It's pretty true to form as well. The thing is it drops to nothing waaaay too close to the shooter.

Would I love to play a game where I would suffer instagib, and have no chance? Well obviously not. However I do play HC, where it is pretty much instagib for any of the 7.62mm weapons, the 40mm's and the .50's do already. But somehow I have a change against those.

Hell in UT with the instagib rifles, I also had a chance when I used to play that.

Would I love to play a game where the shotguns are represented in a more faithful manner, even if it meant an increase in the enemy's efficiency as well? Why not?

Anywya, I'll stop using them. And go back to pistols.

KBK

[sogek1ng]

Wow, everyone is still talking about my poor shotgun. I would be really sad if they changed anything with any of the two shotguns. They are perfect the way they are. If anything the W1200 should have maybe a bit more range, but other then that, it's all good. If they changed them to be really good, it would just be something else you would see everyone else use. I think my kit is perfect for the shotgun. I use my fun kit all the time, cause I can use it in any stage.

You almost never see a shotgun user, I like it that way too. I only tend to see one, after someone gets owned and is like omg, that's it time for the shotty.Then they get shot and knifed, and are like omg hacks. I really like games with balance, and this game is almost perfect when it comes to that.

I will say one thing, the idea about a small hitbox from a little further would be ok, but the damage should be really low. So you can't kill someone unless you used 4 shots or so.

But this is one reason why they should not touch the shotty, in making it better.


http://files.filefront.com/sogepwnsBCSwmv/;9781406;/fileinfo.html part A

http://files.filefront.com/sogepwnsBCS2wmv/;9780613;/fileinfo.html part B

[iQue]

The auto shotty is just fine since it has a high ROF. The pump shotty doesn't have that, just a little extra damage. A slightly longer range is perfect imo.

[sogek1ng]

A slightly longer range is perfect imo.

That could be one of the only things they could do to help it.

[A4D|Mofoka]

Shotgun damage is not inconsistent, that is why they are called "scatter guns" and buck shot is no where near the equivalence of a 9mm bullet, it's a pellet that is not made of the same concentration of metal as a normal bullet is.

If anything, slugs should be introduced but honestly I have as with everyone else seen people run away after being shot with the 50 cal which you and I both know would remove a limb in real life but this is a game and the statistics you're looking for it absurd mainly because true at 6 feet the blast is very concentrated but my Mossberg 500 shooting shells of 3 1/2 has a spread pattern of 10 feet at 30 yards. But 6 feet should make it one hit weapon but if it did then matches would suck.

[=)BiT(= Evant3k]

Well shotguns are meant to be for CQB I don't see the point of them being sniper rifles (altho no scope sniper rifles work better then shotguns). I was never a supporter of changing gameplay so no the shotgun is great as it is now, I have the gold M1014 so I know how to use them.

[TheDesert_Fox]

Anyone who thinks shotties are fine has obviously never used one. I had the chance to a few weeks ago (freakin fun btw) and they will certainly hit things farther than this game says.

You can know how to use them, you can get massive killing sprees with them, whatever you say about how good you are wont cover up the fact that they aren't even near realistic anymore. Even if you think it's balanced, they need changed. It's like saying sniper rifles can't be fired in less than 10 foot range since that's not what they're meant for.

[Roger Smith]

amen.

[Chris_Redfield]

they aren't even near realistic anymore.

Jesus H. Christ

IQ level of this thread is dropping like Romeo 007.

[Roger Smith]

speaking against realism in a game like halo or team fortress 2 makes a lot of sense. speaking against the notion of realism in a game like cod4 hardcore is like holding up a large idiot sign. like it or not, realism is a real term and it has its place. realism is a term to describe a game, that is trying to emulate real life through a simulation. in a game where one bullet can kill more often then not, and bullets go through walls like a knife to butter, i honestly do not think that the notion of realism is so far fetched. when people say realistic, they are not trying to say that game = real life. they are trying to say game = simulation of real life. arguing against the notion of realism just seems a bit elitist and naive to me.

[Chris_Redfield]

Then how come I dont see you playing Project Reality, ArmA, SWAT4, Insurgency, Americas Army?

Considering that every last bit in COD4 normal gamemode has its place because of gameplay balance, this is the only thing that matters. I wouldnt have a problem when people complained about realism aspects, or lacks or inaccuracies in games which are clearly based on real life, in not only the appearance, but in their gameplay aspect aswell, but b!tching about lack of realism in COD4, which cleary is an arcade game, is pushing it.

Consider this. Every time someone moans about realistic inaccuracies in BF2 jet aspect, people snicker. Same here. Every time someone says "dose gunz arnt real, dey suk!", I cant help but shake my head.

If the game was "realistic", pretty much every weapon would kill you on sight, and shotguns would represent the UT rail cannons because of a tight grouping at almost all COD4 engagement ranges.

People who moan about weapons being weak (and alternatively, not real enough), have never faced someone who could potentially show them how bad the weapon can get with extra tweaking.

If you still want to prove a point, go have a game in Vacant against that dude who posted his video against going 6 clanners.

And no, COD4 is not a simulation of real life.

The amusing thing is, every time a "realism" buff comes along, he doesnt even play this game more than a few hours a week, and every last one of his idea comes from his own painted picture of how the game should be played in his opinion. And if those changes get implemented, and he gets "owned", the cries for nerfing start.

BF2 changes for a more "realistic" gameplay have undoubtedly resulted in one of the worst infantry games ever conceived.

Realistic games or semi-realistic games have their own niche and are unpopular for a reason. A UT player would trash a server with a "realistic shotgun" in a matter of minutes. You think its bad that a shotty is a niche gun for talented players? Watch what happens if everyone can use it just as good as an SMG/AR. Gameplay balance flies out of the window.

Im not an elitist, but I support A) the tremendous work IW has put into balancing all the weapons and B) as little changes as possible, based on the passionate, yet baseless posts of a few players.

If you want to prove that your changes will not break a game, mod the shotties, get a few buds and frag around. See what happens.

Best balance types and gameplay changes are ones made by people who check through all possible outcome. IW isnt DICE, and you can bet your behind that the reasons behind shotguns performing the way they perform today, is a solid one. If you have a history of Quake 3 or at least some UT, youd know how bad a 1 shot kill railgun would be in a game like COD4.

Dont be an idiot. You want the game to be as fun as it possibly can be for everyone. Examples of talented people trashing servers have been shown, and youre still complaining about game not catering to your incompetence.

[Roger Smith]

Then how come I dont see you playing Project Reality, ArmA, SWAT4, Insurgency, Americas Army?because i am not playing those games this very second? I've played um, and i loved bits and peaces of all those games. sept swat4, haven't played that.

b!tching about lack of realism in COD4, which cleary is an arcade game, is pushing it.cs is an arcade styled game, so is ut. this game in softcore could even be considered arcade as well. but as i have pointed out many times in this thread, i was speaking to this game in hardcore, which IS REALISTIC, and if you cant see that, you are blind.

If the game was "realistic", pretty much every weapon would kill you on sight, and shotguns would represent the UT rail cannons because of a tight grouping at almost all COD4 engagement ranges.well pretty much all guns do kill on sight in hardcore, and yes shotguns would have the range, but absolutely no stopping power at that range. all getting shot from a shotgun a mile away will do is piss you off, at least using bird shot.


The amusing thing is, every time a "realism" buff comes along, he doesnt even play this game more than a few hours a week, and every last one of his idea comes from his own painted picture of how the game should be played in his opinion. And if those changes get implemented, and he gets "owned", the cries for nerfing start.ya, i am sure you know all that for a fact and its not what you would like to believe. i played the **** out of that game, i am pro realism, and i am pro game-play as-well.


BF2 changes for a more "realistic" gameplay have undoubtedly resulted in one of the worst infantry games ever conceived.um, no. thats not how it went down. you are replacing everything you don't like that got changed with the word realism. the developers were never trying to do anything for the sake of realism. infantry combat fails in that game because of the engine, and the core grenade/revive combat style.


Realistic games or semi-realistic games have their own niche and are unpopular for a reason. A UT player would trash a server with a "realistic shotgun" in a matter of minutes. You think its bad that a shotty is a niche gun for talented players? Watch what happens if everyone can use it just as good as an SMG/AR. Gameplay balance flies out of the window.first off, no ut player would get anywhere in hardcore, until they stopped playing like it was ut. secondly, i was never asking for the shotgun to perform as at the ranges of smgs and assault rifles. i was asking for it to perform properly in the cqc environment. but you didn't pay that any attention did you. in fact, you haven't even argued once against what i was suggesting. you keep arguing against shotgun rail-guns but i never said thats what i wanted things to be like. oh and about bf2. my suggestions for that game were never simply for the sake of realism, neither is this.

Im not an elitist, but I support A) the tremendous work IW has put into balancing all the weapons and B) as little changes as possible, based on the passionate, yet baseless posts of a few players.so why didn't you just say that in the first place rather than getting everything twisted. fact is, you just don't think games should get changed because dice ****ed you over so hard. (like bf2 was all that better before it got patched)

actually i am quite good with the shotgun in this game, given the right scenario. my gripe is that you have a very small window of opportunity to make your shot, when all the other guns have no range deficiencies at all. just because a weapon can be used well in a game, does not mean it is balanced.

so since you never actually have responded to my actual suggestion, let me spell it out for you again.

i am suggesting that shotgun buck not disappear, but have a massive damage/spread drop-off just a little bit farther than it does now, in hardcore.

i am not suggesting shotgun rail-guns.

i am not suggesting that this game is realistic in soft-core.

i am not suggesting this idea for the notion of realism.

i am not suggesting that the shotgun is useless as it is now.

i am not suggesting that infinity ward is a bunch of idiots that don't know what they are doing.

they do know what they are doing, and they did a heck of a job. but i do think when something could be better, it should be. you seem opposed to such a notion.

and yes like it or not, this game IS realistic in hardcore, no less then one of those other games you mentioned.

[Chris_Redfield]

because i am not playing those games this very second? I've played um, and i loved bits and peaces of all those games. sept swat4, haven't played that.

Then go and play those games, instead of trying to make COD4 into a realistic shooter that catered your slow behind even more.


this game in softcore could even be considered arcade as well. but as i have pointed out many times in this thread, i was speaking to this game in hardcore, which IS REALISTIC

No its not. Could you please point me out, except for bullet damage (which Im sure does not respond to terminal ballistics), which parts of COD4 are realistic?


, and if you cant see that, you are blind.

Sorry for not being mentally retarded enough to consider "high damage" to be the only criteria to make a game a "realistic shooter".


well pretty much all guns do kill on sight in hardcore, and yes shotguns would have the range, but absolutely no stopping power at that range. all getting shot from a shotgun a mile away will do is piss you off, at least using bird shot.

If youve been hunting, you can kill a deer, using buckshot, from 50 metres away. One shot kill. Almost all engagements in COD4 are held at about 30 metres. Some more, some less, but thats about the medium. You obviously want a one shot kill rail cannon.


um, no. thats not how it went down. you are replacing everything you don't like that got changed with the word realism. the developers were never trying to do anything for the sake of realism. infantry combat fails in that game because of the engine, and the core grenade/revive combat style.

Considering that things like dolphin diving and shooting while airbourne got patched, after numerous complaints in many forums, with the key words "not realistic", Id say youre wrong.


first off, no ut player would get anywhere in hardcore

They would get further than you. UT players virtue isnt movement and jumping. UT players virtue is exceptionally fast thinking, both defensive and offensive. Which in turn is backed up by superb aiming. A UT player would rape in COD4 after a just a few minutes of time. It would take days for a COD4 HC player to start raping in UT.


secondly, i was never asking for the shotgun to perform as at the ranges of smgs and assault rifles.

By comparing shotties to RL and "demanding" their perfomance to be increased while moaning about them not being up to par to their real life counterparts, you are, in fact, asking shotties to perform at the ranges of SMGs.


i was asking for it to perform properly in the cqc environment.

LOL. See above.

As for CQC, close quarters combat. A distance of a couple of metres. And imagine that, shotguns in COD4 do great in CQC.


in fact, you haven't even argued once against what i was suggesting.

Response nr 34.



you keep arguing against shotgun rail-guns but i never said thats what i wanted things to be like.

Sorry. Just because you cant see past the changes you want to be implemented, doesnt mean we share the same disability. Every change there is, should be calculated through. How its going to be potentially abused.


my suggestions for that game were never simply for the sake of realism, neither is this.

If it wouldnt be for realism, then surely you can adapt and actually use shotties, no? Surely you can understand shotguns position in the food chain. No?


fact is, you just don't think games should get changed because dice ****ed you over so hard. (like bf2 was all that better before it got patched)

Actually, as a matter of fact, BF2 was way better before the patching frenzy began. Not only is there a considerable FPS loss through 1.0-1.41, the gameplay speed and key input freedom got significantly limited. BF2 feels clunky and slow, as opposed to free and dynamic that it was before. But thats not the point. The point is that these changes were in place to stop people from abusing the games specific aspects. Almost nothing can be abused in COD4 today, except for the mounted LGMs. Increasing shotguns potential could, potentially, open up possibilities for abusing them.


actually i am quite good with the shotgun in this game, given the right scenario. my gripe is that you have a very small window of opportunity to make your shot, when all the other guns have no range deficiencies at all. just because a weapon can be used well in a game, does not mean it is balanced.

How many months would it take you to grasp the simple truth that this is exactly the point why shotguns are what they are today? Basically an opposing side of the spectrum from sniper rifles. Both weapons need some serious skill to be used effectively.


so since you never actually have responded to my actual suggestion, let me spell it out for you again.

Response nr 34.


i am suggesting that shotgun buck not disappear, but have a massive damage/spread drop-off just a little bit farther than it does now, in hardcore.

Response nr 34.


they do know what they are doing, and they did a heck of a job. but i do think when something could be better, it should be. you seem opposed to such a notion.

I dont think you know what better is. Otherwise you would have gone out of your way and started with detailed stats and finishing up with a proposal that deals in detail and in-game figures, what and how things need to be changed. When I made several posts proposing the idea of changing flare and missile dynamics, complete with figures and stats, I went out and tested it all out. A lot of the changes that I prposed, I recognise in POE2. (single shot flares, missile arm time post launch)


and yes like it or not, this game IS realistic in hardcore, no less then one of those other games you mentioned.

LOL. What a joke. Youre basically saying that the only thing separating SC from being a realistic game, is 66% health reduction? Give me a break. I would gladly ask for specific examples on what actually makes COD4 "realistic". So that I could debunk each and every one of them.

Dont be an elitist fool.

[TheDesert_Fox]

Jesus H. Christ

IQ level of this thread is dropping like Romeo 007.Only once you got here.

You can't give a good reason why they should be so gimped so you resort to insults... gg.

[imported_Whiskey]

Do yourselves a favour...



Today, 05:07 PM
Chris_Redfield______________________Remove user from ignore list
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Your stress levels will drop immensely.

[TheDesert_Fox]

Do yourselves a favour...

Your stress levels will drop immensely.Awwww snap... now everyone either shares my opinion or doesn't exist at all!

[Chris_Redfield]

Only once you got here.

You can't give a good reason why they should be so gimped so you resort to insults... gg.

Actually I have given reasons why they should stay the way they are throughout this whole thread. But indeed, GG.


Do yourselves a favour...

Your stress levels will drop immensely.

The inability to support your argument and opinion leads to this.